Kent Hovind gets 10 years

[AgingYoung]

Another point that has been made was the amount people pay to take classes then enroll in a doctorate program. My brother attended school with an athletic scholarship. He didn't pay anything for his BS. Is that true BS or what? It was in computer science. MIT thought it was adequate to let him do a little graduate work at their school.

Gene

 

[AgingYoung]

Some laws are acceptable to some. For instance the federal statues that prosecuted Hovind for his infractions of IRS regulations are acceptable. Yet other laws they totally disregard and act as if they don't exist. For instance, the laws of the state of Colorado that grant Patriot Bible University the authority to award degrees are not. I suppose there must be some reason that people have to justify traipsing back and forth across the lines of reason and meanings to justify their self willed, authoritative behavior. I suspect that reason is they know they're right. In that self righteous frame of mind they are certain they have every right to....

• save others in the world that aren't as enlightened as they are from their egregious mistakes
• excuse their own hypocrisy while pointing out that of others
• know that rules of reason and meaning and those civil regulations are for the less enlightened

Gene

 

[Slimething]

My only point is that the laws of Colorado established the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission. That commission has the authority to authorize colleges and universities to issue degrees.

(emphasis added)

Gene, you're fighting a losing battle here as the facts just aren't there. No, the commission does not have the authority to authorize (redundancy yours) anything to issue degrees. Check it out. Degrees can be issued in CO without their approval. For you, this might be a niggling triviality but, as you now (fallaciously) claim it's your only point, I have to call you on it. Citation, please!

It isn't a valid point to call his degree 'fake'. It's a perfectly legal document.

You just don't get the English language, do you? When has "fake" been the same as "illegal"? It's fake as in all the Anastasias out there even though they are/were all valid human beings.

I was in the class but I wasn't really in it.

Slimey now making sure there's nothing between him and the door.

My brother did independent study at an accreditted university out of a small office he shared with two other students. He seldom went to any class for two years. He earned his degree in three years. Where you are learning is irrellevent yet people want to make that a point. It isn't.

Gene, I'm not sure you're making a real good case for your point. Are your feelings of inferiority fueling your need to defend Hovind's subpar education? Do you really need to convince us that you are well-schooled? AFAIK, you have nothing to do with Hovind, nor does your amazing brother so why bring this up? If I were you, though, I'd bone up on my spelling before making this type of argument.

The point from that site you posted was the quality of his thesis. It really isn't anyone's position to grade and accept or reject that thesis. That is the task of Patriot Bible University and they decided.

So, while you were not in the classes you were in, why didn't you not include logic and language skills as stuff you didn't study? First you state that no one can accept or reject a thesis then, in the next sentence, you say that, yes, PBU can.

I didn't know that all thesis were 'original reserach'.

Yes, Gene the Literate, all theses are supposed to be original research, otherwise I could get a doctorate by handing in a textbook. I'll try to ignore "reserach".

You might want to try and change the laws of Colorado so that things like this that sore displease you won't happen in the future.

(again, emphasis mine)

You're embarrassing yourself, Gene. You're retreating from your self-righteous stance adjudging skeptics of being hypocritical and trying to convince yourself (it's not working for us) that you are some type of embodiment of a bad attorney for PBU.

Go away, take your pills, come back when you're thinking more clearly.

 

[Slimething]

Another point that has been made was the amount people pay to take classes then enroll in a doctorate program. My brother attended school with an athletic scholarship. He didn't pay anything for his BS. Is that true BS or what? It was in computer science. MIT thought it was adequate to let him do a little graduate work at their school.

Gene

Gene, look up what a scholarship is, OK? If you go to school on a scholarship, the schooling is not gratis. Somebody paid your bro's tuition for him. Whether or not that was true BS or a true BS only time will tell.

 

[Slimething]

For instance, the laws of the state of Colorado that grant Patriot Bible University the authority to award degrees are not.

I'm calling you on this one, too. Citation, please.

I suppose there must be some reason that people have to justify traipsing back and forth across the lines of reason and meanings to justify their self willed, authoritative behavior. I suspect that reason is they know they're right. In that self righteous frame of mind

Am I the only one here who thinks that Gene is projecting now? Gene, you got on this thread and called everyone a hypocrit. Remember now? You're the self-righteous one here, boyyo, leave us out of it.

they are certain they have every right to....

• save others in the world that aren't as enlightened as they are from their egregious mistakes

You have a problem with people helping out others? Do you ever consult an M.D., attorney, etc?

• excuse their own hypocrisy while pointing out that of others

So, which one are you doing?

• know that rules of reason and meaning and those civil regulations are for the less enlightened

Just what are you rambling on about? None of us has been brought up on tax evasion charges because we have respect for our laws.

Gene, I have no idea what's eating at you such that you have to go call other people hypocrites. I really am beyond caring. Why don't you got sit down somewhere, have a good think and don't forget to flush once you're done?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I concidered trying to rebut AY, but he seems to have enough people doing that.

 

[Questioninggeller]

The point from that site you posted was the quality of his thesis. It really isn't anyone's position to grade and accept or reject that thesis. That is the task of Patriot Bible University and they decided. You might not agree with their decision but it wasn't yours to make.
...
It seems that link you provided immediately starts off on the wrong foot then elaborates a disagreement with the decision that

• 
  ...
  Having said all that the final arbitrator is Patriot Bible University, duly acting with in its legal authority in the State of Colorado. You might not agree with a lot of things about the degree yet it is indeed a perfectly legal document. You might want to try and change the laws of Colorado so that things like this that sore displease you won't happen in the future.
  
  Gene

• 
  
  You are ignorant on how schools award graduate degrees. Students defend their graduate work in front of a committee who has throughly reviewed the work. This is a long process of review months prior. This standard for all accredited schools throughout the world.
  
  You seem to be hung up on the word "legal". Yeah, he's got a doctorate;
  
  It's from an unaccredited correspondence school ran out of a doublewide trailer by people who don't expect high quality work.
  
  

  Another point that has been made was the amount people pay to take classes then enroll in a doctorate program. My brother attended school with an athletic scholarship. He didn't pay anything for his BS. Is that true BS or what? It was in computer science. MIT thought it was adequate to let him do a little graduate work at their school.
  
  Gene

  
  What is this point about?
  
  Most doctoral programs fund their students so they don't pay money for tuition and the schools give money for students to live off.
  (For example, Harvard's math program "In your first year we automatically offer you the full departmental stipend and you have no obligation to teach." Students get $20,000 a year to live off and don't pay tuition http://www.math.harvard.edu/graduate/index.html)
  
  However, if your brother and others do not have the scholarship, tuition is not priced as Patriot is:
  
  Patriot tuition: Doctoral Dissertation (or proj.)--- $375.00 http://www.patriotuniversity.com/tuitionpay.htm
  
  The place Hovind attended is a degree mill.
  
  

  A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is an organization that awards academic degrees and diplomas with very little or no academic study, and without recognition by official accrediting bodies.

  
  http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Diploma_mill
  
  Yes, the doublewide trailer called Patriot is "approved" to issue religious degrees however:
  
  1) It requires little work (takes months not years to complete)
  2) It is NOT accredited (meaning no accredited place will accept his degree)
  3) Other questionable features such as what's the education of the "faculty," why does it have a single payment for a PhD, you can get a doctorate without ever visiting the "school," and so on.
  
  Why are you defending Patriot and/or Hovind?
  
  I truly take offense to your defense of his "education." Anyone who has been through the difficult process of graduate school would take offense to Hovind's usage of his "degrees" and "doctorate"
  
  If you have no problem with saying Hovind's educated then if you get cancer be sure to follow Hovind's education/view of science that cancer is treatable. (Do a google search if you are unfamiliar with Hovind's cancer claims.)
  
  Hovind is a dangerous nut job who's "education"/"degrees" are worthless to academia and dangerous to the ignorant public who follows him.

 

[AgingYoung]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/10519456cde3d4a6d4.gif[/qimg]

I concsidered trying to rebut AY, but he seems to have enough people doing that.

Bless you, my child.

Gene

 

[AgingYoung]

Questioninggeller,

Of course I'm hung up on the word legal. It is by legal authority that the degree is considered real and not 'fake' as it was alleged. It might be hard to argue if it were said to be unearned or not worth the sheep it was tattooed onto; something like that. An allegation that it is a fake is beyond reason.

Gene

You seem to be hung up on the word "legal". Yeah, he's got a doctorate;

 

[quixotecoyote]

Questioninggeller,

Of course I'm hung up on the word legal. It is by legal authority that the degree is considered real and not 'fake' as it was alleged. It might be hard to argue if it were said to be unearned or not worth the sheep it was tattooed onto; something like that. An allegation that it is a fake is beyond reason.

Gene

Well, generally the concept of a fake degree extends not just to degrees produced in an illegal fashion, but also in an unaccredited fashion.

 

[Questioninggeller]

Questioninggeller,

Of course I'm hung up on the word legal. It is by legal authority that the degree is considered real and not 'fake' as it was alleged. It might be hard to argue if it were said to be unearned or not worth the sheep it was tattooed onto; something like that. An allegation that it is a fake is beyond reason.

Gene

You picked one part to respond to and did so poorly.

I never said his "degree" was "fake" or "illegal." (Though use of the Dr title maybe illegal in certain areas if from an unaccredited place.)

Words I use to describe Hovinds "education" from Patriot: Worthless, not on par with accredited schools, not convincing of any rigorous program, misleading, insulting to real graduates, garbage, improper, degree mill, and rubbish.

You can say his unaccredited degree is "earned" by unaccredited standards. However, that means nothing. What are the standards of an unaccredited school? In the case of Hovind's "dissertation" from Patriot:

...
The dissertation is NOT 250 pages in length. Patriot University sent Mr. Evans a dissertation that is 101 pages in length, including the dedication. The pages of Hovind's thesis are NOT numbered, so my references to page numbers start with the "Dedication" page being number one. There is no table of contents, but on pages five and six Hovind describes a thesis that has 16 chapters. The thesis that Mr. Evans received from Patriot University was a four-chapter thesis.
...
There is only one committee member, a Dr. Wayne Knight. Normally, a thesis must pass muster with 3-5 committee members, all of whom make suggestions and ultimately "sign off" on the thesis. Even the undergraduate honors theses at my institution require the signatures of two faculty members.

Misspellings are rampant. A careful, knowledgeable editor/adviser would never allow a student to get away with misspelling "Caanan", "Voltair", "Nyles Eldridge", Madelyn Murray "O'Hare" (just like the airport), "Shintu" (the Japanese religion), "peersuaded", "centrifical" (force!!!), "aught" (to!), "disippated", "immerged" (from the slime), or "epic" (as in geological!). "It's" is used as a possessive pronoun. There are several non sentences. This is especially interesting since the course catalog of PU offers courses like "Refresher English" and "Mechanics of Composition".

THE THESIS HAS NO TITLE. There are no references or footnotes. A few partial citations are included in the body of the thesis, but they are not in standard form, and are incomplete. In at least two places (pp 65-66) the citation simply notes that there is a book title to be added. This has no place in a final version.

The single illustration, the electromagnetic spectrum, is cut out of a science textbook and taped on; it does not fit the page. Additionally, there are substantial formatting errors typical of a draft, but not a final, version. The final version is printed on a dot-matrix printer, an absolute no-no, even in 1991.

The Ph.D. is in "Christian Education", not "Education" - that's what the title page says. The coursework for the two degrees is substantially different, but as late as 1-10-00, Hovind still seems loath to advertising the "Christian" aspect of his degree. Curious that a Christian would leave that part out!
...
One gets a real sense of deja vu when reading this chapter because large portions are EXACT, VERBATIM PARAGRAPHS from Chapter 2. Pages 60-61 are identical to pages 50-51; page 56 is repeated nearly verbatim on page 63 and again on page 64. The Newsweek quotation on page 55 shows up intact on page 65; D. S. Woodruff, as well as Gould and Eldredge from page 55, are reprised on page 66.
...
The topic of this dissertation DOES NOT HAVE anything to do with the effects of evolution in the public schools. Instead it is a hodge-podge of recycled, discredited, young Earth ideas, digressions into Bible stories and quotations, and a litany of "Evolution-as-religion" statements, embedded almost in 1984 manner into the text. If Hovind wished to silence his critics, he could do so by posting a 250-page document on THE EFFECTS OF TEACHING EVOLUTION ON THE STUDENTS IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM with evidence that supports its 1991 origin.

No original thought is presented. This is nothing more than a rehash of long-discredited theories. It is a rambling, low-quality book report, sans the references. It is not an original, thoughtful, coherent body of knowledge. To award a Ph.D. for this is a travesty and an insult to anyone who has actually worked to achieve one.
...

I selected only a few sections, full review: http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm

 

[AgingYoung]

quixotecoyote,

Fraud has a technical definition. The point that Hovind's degree was a 'fake' was used to support his fraudulent acts to further equate his situation to Capone's. That is Capone was party to a lot of illegal activity yet they nailed him for tax evasion. That analogy breaks down when you realize that there was nothing fraudulent legally with Hovind's degree.

Most of the points used to analogize Hovind's position to Capone break down with a reasonable look at the points. It's worse than pulling hen's teeth here.

Gene

 

[Questioninggeller]

quixotecoyote,

Fraud has a technical definition. The point that Hovind's degree was a 'fake' was used to support his fraudulent acts to further equate his situation to Capone's. That is Capone was party to a lot of illegal activity yet they nailed him for tax evasion. That analogy breaks down when you realize that there was nothing fraudulent legally with Hovind's degree.

Most of the points used to analogize Hovind's position to Capone break down with a reasonable look at the points. It's worse than pulling hen's teeth here.

Gene

Depends on the context when citing fraud.

His claims about his degree are fraudulent when he claims he has a "doctorate in education" because he does not. He has an unaccredited "doctorate in Christian education," leaving out the Christian implies it is a secular degree, which many make the assumption that it is accredited.

As for using the doctor title, when wearing a lab coat and saying you "taught science" in that context is misleading as well. (Forgetting to explain he has no accredited degree, no teaching credential, no education in science, and failing to mention it was at private schools including one he started.)

Watch Hovind's son, Eric Hovind, describe Kent's "doctorate in education" in front of Kent Hovind (who is wearing a lab coat) and watch Kent explain he has a "doctorate in education":



(I also consider it improper/misleading for him to use the Dr. title. That title is for people who have earned it through the rigors of higher education. He has not.)

 

[AgingYoung]

Questioninggeller,

When you look at the definition from Black's...

Definition of Fraud

All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979.

you notice a point of fraud is 'intent'...

• which are resorted to by one individual

No one has proved that to be the case. We could further discuss purpose...

• to get an advantage over another

or go right to the method which I think you're suggesting...

• cunning or dissembling

If I understand you correctly you're accusing Hovind of fraud by nondisclosure. First to prove fraud you have to prove intent. Even still if you can prove intent that line between fraud and fraud by nondisclosure is a fine one and most difficult to substantiate.

Before you accuse someone one of that and slime their character you should be willing and able to prove it. In my mind that's a very reasonable request.

Gene

 

[Questioninggeller]

Questioninggeller,

When you look at the definition from Black's...

...
If I understand you correctly you're accusing Hovind of fraud by nondisclosure. First to prove fraud you have to prove intent. Even still if you can prove intent that line between fraud and fraud by nondisclosure is a fine one and most difficult to substantiate.

Before you accuse someone one of that and slime their character you should be willing and able to prove it. In my mind that's a very reasonable request.

Gene

You understand me correctly. In Hovind's lectures and DVDs he says he has a "doctorate in education" when he does not. If he was interested in correcting this claim he could amend a DVD he sells to the public or clarify his unaccredited status to his audiences.

The intent to defraud is clear. Especially given his past claims and current bouts with tax law.

Also I haven't "slimed" Hovind's character. I've pointed out mistruths, shady educational claims, and poor research done by this convicted felon.

You ignored some statements and questions. His creationist and educational/credential misinformation is of important significance, but there is a wider danger as well. I'm going to ask this very clearly:

1) Did you look up/ see the video of Hovind's claim that he has a cure for cancer?

2) Is it acceptable for someone without any accredited degrees in science who is wearing a lab coat talking about a doctorate and teaching science to make recommendations on cancer treatment?

 

[AgingYoung]

You picked one part to respond to and did so poorly.

...

As a matter of practicality you can only discuss one point at a time. The accusation is specious. The accusation of 'poorly' is opinion. The shotgun approach of multiple points with known fallacious reasoning among them is specious.

Gene

 

[AgingYoung]

Questioninggeller,

I honestly don't think you have any idea how difficult it is to prove fraud by nondisclosure. It is easier to make a pmm. Since this thread is about Hovind's conviction on tax evasion I think any point made concerning him should meet a legal criteria.

Considering that Hovind's degree is a perfectly legal document you can't use that to suggest that he is guilty of the point of dissembling with it. Further to prove 'nondisclosure' you have to get inside a person's mind. That is next to impossible.

Gene

 

[Questioninggeller]

Questioninggeller,

I honestly don't think you have any idea how difficult it is to prove fraud by nondisclosure. It is easier to make a pmm. Since this thread is about Hovind's conviction on tax evasion I think any point made concerning him should meet a legal criteria.

Considering that Hovind's degree is a perfectly legal document you can't use that to suggest that he is guilty of the point of dissembling with it. Further to prove 'nondisclosure' you have to get inside a person's mind. That is next to impossible.

Gene

To believe a repeated failure of disclosure by someone, who was found as early as 1996 by a judge to have deceived the courts, was an accident requires a pretty big blindfold.

If it is not purposely misleading: why doesn't Hovind edit his videos, amend his lectures, correct the homepage drdino.com (notice the bottom refers to him as Dr Hovind and mentions teaching science, but nothing about Christian Education, Patriot University, or non-accredited.), and so on?

A danger in his non-disclosure:

1) Did you look up/ see the video of Hovind's claim that he has a cure for cancer?

2) Is it acceptable for someone without any accredited degrees in science who is wearing a lab coat talking about a doctorate and teaching science to make recommendations on cancer treatment?

Hovind's "cure for cancer" is 39:00 minutes into it (or 9:40 from the end):

 

[AgingYoung]

To believe a repeated failure of disclosure by someone who was found as early as 1996 by a judge to have deceived the courts requires a pretty big blindfold.

At issue is Hovind's degree and it's validity. Further is to suggest that he obtained a legally valid degree with the intent to defraud. The point that he filed bankruptcy in the past and that petition was dismissed (for any reason) in no way substantiates the allegation that Hovind knowingly obtained a valid degree from an known legal entity in the state of Colorado authorized to issue that degree with the intent to defraud.

I move that these ludicrous charges be dismissed.

Gene

 

[Questioninggeller]

I'll respond to your previous post once you respond to this:

1) Did you look up/ see the video of Hovind's claim that he has a cure for cancer?

2) Is it acceptable for someone without any accredited degrees in science who is wearing a lab coat talking about a doctorate and teaching science to make recommendations on cancer treatment?

Hovind's "cure for cancer" is 39:00 minutes into it (or 9:40 from the end):