Jogging in Georgia while black.

[arthwollipot]

Must you continually use that word?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Arbery didn't have any options, realistically. If he'd surrendered the McMichaels's might well have felt he was resisting arrest and shot him because they didn't have any means of restraint, if he'd run off the road they could have shot him and argued a crime in progress, and if he'd wrestled the shotgun away and used it to defend himself then the cops would have shot him the moment they got there. Realistically, what he did just gave him the best chance of taking one of the murdering bastards with him.

Dave

 

[Andy_Ross]

Or leave the paved street. Chase over. Those butterballs would've had heart attacks in a foot chase.

You seem awfully critical of the GTFOOT approach. You have a better one? We saw how the Superman approach worked. Is that what you think is optimum?

How does it work on a grid pattern of roads? they just circle round and cut him off again.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Then what were his options? No more weaseling.

1. Keep running past them
2. Surrender/comply
3. Go wrestle the gun with two other armed rednecks backing him up
4. GTFOOT off the road

Option 1 was effectively working up to that point
Option 2 is not an option, IMO.
Option 3...well, we saw it couldn't have been a worse choice
Option 4 eod likely have worked as option one had been working , but with finality. Unless you are theorizing neighbors in snipers nests or murderous quick draw artists lounging on their back porches

So let's hear it. What is your so much better option?

He had no good options. he was going to die.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Plus I gather you don't shoot, right? This is a shotgun, with a dozen or so spreading pellets, not a bullet. I also take it you never tried to hit a high speed moving target. Not the easiest thing either

If the shotgun was loaded for defence rather than hunting then it was more likely loaded with 00 Buck, usually nine. They are .33 diameter. That is the size of a compact pistol bullet.

 

[Myriad]

The argument that he could have left the road is simply a response to these asinine assertions that he could not possibly have done so, and had no choice but to run headlong into the shotgun, or continue the chase against cars on the asphalt for eternity.

The current argument is *checks notes* that stepping off the asphalt requires Herculean thought and days of consideration (seriously, how do these people cross the street?).

Better question, Myriad: do you think he had no other options? Why?

I see you've chosen to switch to a "better question" than answer the one I asked. How disappointing. Have you even looked at the map?

 

[catsmate]

They had been chasing him, and not shooting. It stands to reason they would have continued not shooting.

Wallpaper words. You have no-way to determine this.

 

[catsmate]

Look at your clairvoyance!

Wow. Just wow, after your various assertions you can seriously accuse someone else of this?

Arbery is running down the road with a vehicle behind him. He runs around the vehicle stopped on the road in front of him to be met by a man wielding a shotgun. That is blocked, by a truck and an armed man.

What definition of the word blocked are you using?

One that's most favourable to racists.

 

[catsmate]

Watch how fast Arbury exits the construction site and hits the road. Couple seconds. Same thing in reverse, but Travis would be pointing towards his neighbors houses, making him hesitate.

Now factor in tiredness and stress after being chased.

Plus I gather you don't shoot, right? This is a shotgun, with a dozen or so spreading pellets, not a bullet. I also take it you never tried to hit a high speed moving target. Not the easiest thing either

I have. You're talking bollocks, a running man is not "a high speed moving target" any more than deer or birds.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The best part of the fantasy scenario is that it assumes some limitless font of energy and disregards the physical and mental toll that had already been taken on him by his continued attempts to evade his pursuers. I mean, sure, he'd already run a couple miles but he'd still have a marathon of sprinting left in him. Black people have special muscles for that, don't they?

Give them a few more generations of selection pressure and I'm sure they will have.

 

[Craig4]

Must you continually use that word?

Did these three morons see their victim as a fully enfranchised person? In their minds do you really think they hadn't dehumanized him? Is their anything in their behavior that indicates to you that their victim wasn't the hated other.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

It was never Arbery's responsibility to come up with a prudent course of action. Arbery was attempting to avoid being unlawfully detained by two stupid crackers when said stupid crackers murdered him. he had no way of knowing what the crackers had in mind when idiot boy got out with a shotgun. The McMichaels are clearly of a class that has a long history in Georgia of murdering black people. All the crackers had to do was stay home, in their place and none of this would have happened. Abery was forced on the spot to make a life and death decision because these stupid crackers thought they were more than they were.

A lot of unfounded assumption in that post just to end up saying that Arbery was forced on the spot to make a life and death decision. Or in other words "come up with a prudent course of action".

 

[Craig4]

A lot of unfounded assumption in that post just to end up saying that Arbery was forced on the spot to make a life and death decision. Or in other words "come up with a prudent course of action".

You are incorrect. The police reports do not indicate that any of the three had the direct knowledge of a crime and the Arbery committed it. That is the requirement for a private citizen making and arrest. Their attempt to stop him is then unlawfully detention, a felony. The killing happened while the three decedent's were committing a felony making the crime murder. The law allows for Arbery to use force to defend himself from being unlawfully detained by a private citizen.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

You are incorrect. The police reports do not indicate that any of the three had the direct knowledge of a crime and the Arbery committed it. That is the requirement for a private citizen making and arrest. Their attempt to stop him is then unlawfully detention, a felony. The killing happened while the three decedent's were committing a felony making the crime murder. The law allows for Arbery to use force to defend himself from being unlawfully detained by a private citizen.

How does that have anything to do with my post?

 

[Craig4]

How does that have anything to do with my post?

You said I made unfounded assumptions. My post was is entirely based on Georgia law and the police reports. There was nothing unfounded about it.

 

[Leftus]

Sometimes it is valid. When cornered, for instance. It when there is a viable means of escape, I would say take it rather than trust the whack jobs to not shoot. There's a lot of people under dirt who complied with a nut.

Color me confused now. You said it wasn't valid. Now it might be valid?

Its possible. It's also possible to get clear. Based on how close the houses were to the street, is say the odds were good of getting away from the sole known threat in a second or two. There may be other possible threats, but you are getting out of sight of the only known, ok e threat.

How close to the street were those houses? I saw plenty of green between the road and the nearest house. Looking at the maps at the corner of Satilla and Holmes, it's a good 100 feet between road and house and closer to 300 to back yards. Usain Bolt covers 12.47 meters in a second. Let's say he is half that speed, 6 meters in a second. So he can get, maybe 20 feet, 40 feet in that distance.

Let's say it takes half a second for Travis to aim and fire. So we are working with 10 feet of distance. If you are, say, 6 feet from the armed guy, and a good 100 feet from effective cover or possible concealment, which way do you head?

I get your reasoning, but with Travis having backup, as well as being on the trigger side of the gun, I still think facing a theoretical quick draw shooter on their back porch is the safer bet in this one.

you've still got the yahoos on your ass. Yahoos who already think you are dangerous and you heading into the homes of your neighbors. You think they are less likely to shoot because of this? A bunch of your neighbors, armed, are chasing someone and ask "Which way did he go?" Odds are, they rat him out.

 

[Leftus]

Do you think it's reasonable that Arbery may not have been capable of this kind of analysis while being chased down by people with guns?

I'm not sure anyone, untrained that is, would make a perfect tactical assessment when being chased by thugs with guns. I'm not sure if I would have made the same decisions as he did, but I might have. Armed guy within reasonable grapple range, his support to far away to make a difference, I might try to even the playing field, take one down, use him as cover?

I hope to never be in that situation, but I've done enough active shooter drills to know I'm not running. Body too old and decrepit. It's hunker and fight for this old Marine.

Maybe he should have just played possum, collapse right on the ground. Fake a heart attack.

 

[bruto]

Of course it all depends on how you spin the facts ex post facto.

We don't know everything they thought, if "thought" is even applicable here, but there are a couple of things we do know for sure. We know that they were willing to lie and that they were willing to kill. We know this because they did it.

Any idea of an alternative must take this into account, and should, I think, include the likelihood that they were looking for an excuse to kill Arbery. He gave them one, but there is no possible other alternative for which a group of vigilantes demonstrated to be murderous liars could not have made an equal excuse.

I know that the search for alternatives is not consciously racist, but it carries with it a subtle and persistent odor: that the band of assassins were not as bad as all that, and their victim's mistake was not to trust them. Somehow we keep coming back to the logical impasse of saying that the incident wasn't his fault, except insofar as it is.

 

[wareyin]

Color me confused now. You said it wasn't valid. Now it might be valid?



How close to the street were those houses? I saw plenty of green between the road and the nearest house. Looking at the maps at the corner of Satilla and Holmes, it's a good 100 feet between road and house and closer to 300 to back yards. Usain Bolt covers 12.47 meters in a second. Let's say he is half that speed, 6 meters in a second. So he can get, maybe 20 feet, 40 feet in that distance.

Let's say it takes half a second for Travis to aim and fire. So we are working with 10 feet of distance. If you are, say, 6 feet from the armed guy, and a good 100 feet from effective cover or possible concealment, which way do you head?

I'd just like to point out that Travis was able to fire and hit Arbery in the chest immediately after Arbery passed the front of the truck. The gun was already aimed, the finger was already on the trigger. He wouldn't have been able to go 3 feet towards the houses before Travis shot him "to protect his neighbors." The rest of your analysis is spot on, but will be ignored or forgotten by those singing the "it's not his fault, but he bears the responsibility for not doing x" song.

 

[Ranb]

Regarding whether or not a person running away from a person armed with a shotgun or rifle. If a person is running away, the departure angle is most likely very small, in other words they are well with-in max point blank range for at least several seconds. Shooting them would not be a challenge at all provided the shooters is willing to do so.

Running across the shooter's field of view complicates things. This was not the case with Arbery though. He was right next to the shooter. Had he tried to run away, he would still be a sitting duck.

For those who know how easy it is to shoot a clay pigeon flying directly away from them compared to flying across their field of view, they will understand exactly what I'm saying.