Jogging in Georgia while black.

[JoeMorgue]

Through his neighbors back deck?

Oh Jesus I don't give a ****. Just keeping making up things the black guy could have done differently and getting pissy when people point out that's what you're doing.

If he ran off road the situation would not have magically turned out in his favor and you'd just be "just talking" about whatever he should have done differently in that scenario.

There's always something the black person "should have done differently." That's the point and the problem.

 

[Babbylonian]

Oh Jesus I don't give a ****. Just keeping making up things the black guy could have done differently and getting pissy when people point out that's what you're doing.

If he ran off road the situation would not have magically turned out in his favor and you'd just be "just talking" about whatever he should have done differently in that scenario.

There's always something the black person "should have done differently." That's the point and the problem.

The best part of the fantasy scenario is that it assumes some limitless font of energy and disregards the physical and mental toll that had already been taken on him by his continued attempts to evade his pursuers. I mean, sure, he'd already run a couple miles but he'd still have a marathon of sprinting left in him. Black people have special muscles for that, don't they?

 

[Mycroft]

I hear you, but I would think the evidence suggests the rednecks were not intending to shoot. Greggy didn't even have his gun out till after shots were fired by his son, and the son didn't fire till they were in arms reach and about to engage. Nor was a gun shown (that we know of) during the other attempted stops.

This says to me that the McMichaels were not intending to shoot. If they were, they waited till the most dangerous and ridiculous time to do so.

When Arbery ran off in the earlier chases, they didn't shoot. I think it stands to reason that if he ran through a neighbors yard, they wouldn't have shot either. The only evidence we have of Travis pulling a trigger was when he was being rushed at close range.

Do you think it's reasonable that Arbery may not have been capable of this kind of analysis while being chased down by people with guns?

 

[pgwenthold]

Oh Jesus I don't give a ****. Just keeping making up things the black guy could have done differently and getting pissy when people point out that's what you're doing.

If he ran off road the situation would not have magically turned out in his favor and you'd just be "just talking" about whatever he should have done differently in that scenario.

There's always something the black person "should have done differently." That's the point and the problem.

Look, let's get down to what it's all about: If he had just acknowledged the authority of the white men with guns...

 

[Thermal]

Oh Jesus I don't give a ****. Just keeping making up things the black guy could have done differently and getting pissy when people point out that's what you're doing.

If he ran off road the situation would not have magically turned out in his favor and you'd just be "just talking" about whatever he should have done differently in that scenario.

There's always something the black person "should have done differently." That's the point and the problem.

I honestly can't tell if you are misreading intentionally or not.

Arbery is zero percent responsible for this mess. The armed criminal killers are 100% responsible. You got that? Clear enough?

What I am arguing now is this dumb ass assertion I am reading that he couldn't do anything else. Yes, he could. He had options. He chose a ballsey one, and it backfired. That does not mean 'the black guy' is at fault, or that I am arguing so.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 12

Ahmaud Arbery's murder was not his doing. The killers are in custody. That ends the debate, functionally. Can we not discuss tangential issues as well, without your indignation?

Eta: and yes, getting out of sight of the killers, which he could have done in about a second and a half, would have likely gotten him to relative safety. Nothing magical about it. If you think other options cannot have resulted in a different outcome, I don't know what to say.

 

[pgwenthold]

Do you think it's reasonable that Arbery may not have been capable of this kind of analysis while being chased down by people with guns?

I would add, this needs to be considered from the perspective of a black guy in Georgia being chased by white guys in a pickup with guns. I am hard-pressed to suggest that anything I might come up with in terms of response means anything.

 

[RedStapler]

The best part of the fantasy scenario is that it assumes some limitless font of energy and disregards the physical and mental toll that had already been taken on him by his continued attempts to evade his pursuers. I mean, sure, he'd already run a couple miles but he'd still have a marathon of sprinting left in him. Black people have special muscles for that, don't they?

Yeah, it's in their DNA. The gene sequence of "develop special running muscles" is right next to the sequence named "be a criminal from early childhood on because your skin has darker pigments than other humans".

That's at least what the common racist must be thinking.

 

[Thermal]

Look, let's get down to what it's all about: If he had just acknowledged the authority of the white men with guns...

Seems to be your argument alone. I say he should have gotten the **** out of there, off the road.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I honestly can't tell if you are misreading intentionally or not.

Can we just skip your patented "Oh so everyone is just choosing to misunderstand me in the same way?" routine this time?

 

[wareyin]

Then what were his options? No more weaseling.

1. Keep running past them
2. Surrender/comply
3. Go wrestle the gun with two other armed rednecks backing him up
4. GTFOOT off the road

Option 1 was effectively working up to that point
Option 2 is not an option, IMO.
Option 3...well, we saw it couldn't have been a worse choice
Option 4 eod likely have worked as option one had been working , but with finality. Unless you are theorizing neighbors in snipers nests or murderous quick draw artists lounging on their back porches


So let's hear it. What is your so much better option?

Option 1 had been tried for apparently 4 minutes by that point. I'll repeat that for you: Arbery had already been running for his life from 2 cars full of gun toting vigilantes for 4 minutes.

Option 2 is not an option.

Option 3 was apparently his last ditch effort after he had exhausted his other options.

Option 4 is a plumb stupid option given that bullets don't care what surface you run on and this neighborhood had already sprung 2 car loads of people ready to kill him for doing it. eta: Let me remind you that some people think a black man entering his own property is committing an assault, so bulldozing onto other people's property when you're being chased by gun toting vigilantes will not end well.

Stop. Pretending. That. Arbery. Should. Have. Prevented. His. Murderers. From. Killing. Him.

He was trying to. They took away his options. Sometimes you have no good option, and blaming the victim for picking one when there is literally no good option is not productive.

 

[Thermal]

Do you think it's reasonable that Arbery may not have been capable of this kind of analysis while being chased down by people with guns?

Sure, under pressure pressure, people don't make their best decisions. What I am arguing is this assertion that he had no other options. He did.

 

[Leftus]

Then what were his options? No more weaseling.

1. Keep running past them
2. Surrender/comply
3. Go wrestle the gun with two other armed rednecks backing him up
4. GTFOOT off the road

Option 1 was effectively working up to that point
Option 2 is not an option, IMO.
Option 3...well, we saw it couldn't have been a worse choice
Option 4 eod likely have worked as option one had been working , but with finality. Unless you are theorizing neighbors in snipers nests or murderous quick draw artists lounging on their back porches


So let's hear it. What is your so much better option?

Why is #2 not an option? If they only shot because he charged at them, how is #2 excluded?

How is trespassing the safer option? What that does is open up more "self defense" of others scenarios. He was running towards Old Man Smith's home, so we shot him to protect Old Man Smith. He was hiding in the shed of widow Jones. We had to drag him out and then shoot him.

Closing on the nearest attacker was, tactically, a good choice.

 

[Meadmaker]

Oh Jesus I don't give a ****. Just keeping making up things the black guy could have done differently and getting pissy when people point out that's what you're doing.

If he ran off road the situation would not have magically turned out in his favor and you'd just be "just talking" about whatever he should have done differently in that scenario.

There's always something the black person "should have done differently." That's the point and the problem.

You're projecting.

Thermal is talking about tactical decisions, not moral ones.

The choice Arbery made was a very risky move and it did not work out well for him. Maybe something else might have done better. It couldn't have done worse. That doesn't mean that it was an immoral choice, and no one is saying it was. (Well, maybe our resident racists will say it was, but who cares?)

You don't give a ****? Ok. Then don't respond. Why the need to tell people that you aren't interested in what they are discussing?

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Seems to be your argument alone. I say he should have gotten the **** out of there, off the road.

They wouldn't have bothered chasing him. You think they'd have sat on their thumbs, helpless to act, while a BLACK MAN ran towards *their* neighbor's houses, for sure to steal everything and kill them as he ran by? Arbery's choices were be shot in the front while fighting to remove the weapon and maybe survive, or shot in the back as he tried to run away. That's all on the shooter, because no one should have to make a choice like that because they went out for a run.

 

[Thermal]

Why is #2 not an option? If they only shot because he charged at them, how is #2 excluded?

Sometimes it is valid. When cornered, for instance. It when there is a viable means of escape, I would say take it rather than trust the whack jobs to not shoot. There's a lot of people under dirt who complied with a nut.

How is trespassing the safer option? What that does is open up more "self defense" of others scenarios. He was running towards Old Man Smith's home, so we shot him to protect Old Man Smith. He was hiding in the shed of widow Jones. We had to drag him out and then shoot him.

Its possible. It's also possible to get clear. Based on how close the houses were to the street, is say the odds were good of getting away from the sole known threat in a second or two. There may be other possible threats, but you are getting out of sight of the only known, ok e threat.

Closing on the nearest attacker was, tactically, a good choice.

I get your reasoning, but with Travis having backup, as well as being on the trigger side of the gun, I still think facing a theoretical quick draw shooter on their back porch is the safer bet in this one.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

No one is saying anything about potential shooters in the surrounding houses. No one. You do realize that even shotguns have a bullet radius wider than humans can run, right? Usain Bolt couldn't have run from Travis without a bullet in the back.

 

[Thermal]

They wouldn't have bothered chasing him. You think they'd have sat on their thumbs, helpless to act, while a BLACK MAN ran towards *their* neighbor's houses, for sure to steal everything and kill them as he ran by? Arbery's choices were be shot in the front while fighting to remove the weapon and maybe survive, or shot in the back as he tried to run away. That's all on the shooter, because no one should have to make a choice like that because they went out for a run.

They had been chasing him, and not shooting. It stands to reason they would have continued not shooting.

They were not sniping at moving targets. Travis did not fire till Arbery was lunging at him, and there is no reason to think he would have started shooting towards his beloved neighbors houses, as that would have been what Arbery was running by. As in, right by their windows, that buckshot penetrates quite easily.

 

[Thermal]

No one is saying anything about potential shooters in the surrounding houses. No one. You do realize that even shotguns have a bullet radius wider than humans can run, right? Usain Bolt couldn't have run from Travis without a bullet in the back.

Watch how fast Arbury exits the construction site and hits the road. Couple seconds. Same thing in reverse, but Travis would be pointing towards his neighbors houses, making him hesitate.

Plus I gather you don't shoot, right? This is a shotgun, with a dozen or so spreading pellets, not a bullet. I also take it you never tried to hit a high speed moving target. Not the easiest thing either

 

[Ranb]

They had been chasing him, and not shooting. It stands to reason they would have continued not shooting.

It only "stands to reason" if their actions that night were reasonable. They drove after Arbury and tried to corner him on the road, not reasonable.

 

[bruto]

Seems to be your argument alone. I say he should have gotten the **** out of there, off the road.

You may be right in hindsight but you may be wrong too. We'll never know. In an alternate story, where he is shot when he steps into someone's yard, or ambushed when he comes out the other side, I would not be surprised to see the same people noting that he should have stayed on the road.