Cont: Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial

Much as I'm breathing a sigh of relief at these verdicts; and much as I think the verdicts were necessary to deter the sort of dangerous and murderous behavior that lead to Arbery's death; and much as I wholeheartedly believe that Ahmaud Arbery's friends and family, and everyone else he touched deserve to know justice, I can't help but note that Travis McMichael has an innocent son who is young enough to need a car seat (or was at the time of the shooting). Who unknowingly lost both his father and grandfather forever over the course of the five minutes (?) of pursuit on the day Ahmaud Arbery died.

EDIT: Well... for the rest of his formative years. Most probably.
 
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Shadowdweller said:
Much as I'm breathing a sigh of relief at these verdicts; and much as I think the verdicts were necessary to deter the sort of dangerous and murderous behavior that lead to Arbery's death; and much as I wholeheartedly believe that Ahmaud Arbery's friends and family, and everyone else he touched deserve to know justice, I can't help but note that Travis McMichael has an innocent son who is young enough to need a car seat (or was at the time of the shooting). Who unknowingly lost both his father and grandfather forever over the course of the five minutes (?) of pursuit on the day Ahmaud Arbery died.

EDIT: Well... for the rest of his formative years. Most probably.
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Ultimately, he's young enough that, in the long term, he might end up better off away from the racist influence of his father and grandfather.
 
theprestige said:
To me, you have a very weird and obscene idea of what's morally right.
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To be clear, I do not (I think) but surmise that some others do. Of course you may see it differently.

The defendants in this case appear to have been convinced that they were morally right, and Skeptic Tank appears to agree with them (I say "appear" here to be charitable, since I suspect they knew damned well they were in the wrong and were motivated by baser instincts, but I go by what they argue), and both he and the defendants have made that argument to suggest that they should not be bound by the laws that forbid them to do what they did. I think their morality is indeed weird and obscene, but my point is that even if it were not, what is illegal is illegal, and in a secular society (which I believe we should strive to maintain) it is good and right that this is so.
 
smartcooky said:
Ultimately, he's young enough that, in the long term, he might end up better off away from the racist influence of his father and grandfather.
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Perhaps. I tend to think that parents serve significantly greater purpose in people's lives than as mere moral guides (or bad examples). And 4 years is more than enough time to develop a significant emotional bond.
 
bruto said:
(I say "appear" here to be charitable, since I suspect they knew damned well they were in the wrong and were motivated by baser instincts, but I go by what they argue)
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I would have expected Bryan at least to have been much less forthcoming with the police had he actually realized that he had done anything wrong or illegal. Judging by the number of people I've been debating who -continue- to believe that the McMichaels didn't do anything wrong, and that Arbery was guilty of burglary, it's quite easy for me to envision the perpetrators being sincere in their belief of their innocence.
 
Shadowdweller said:
Perhaps. I tend to think that parents serve significantly greater purpose in people's lives than as mere moral guides (or bad examples). And 4 years is more than enough time to develop a significant emotional bond.
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By the time his father gets out of prison, the kid won't even remember him. How much do you remember of when you were 4?
 
Shadowdweller said:
I would have expected Bryan at least to have been much less forthcoming with the police had he actually realized that he had done anything wrong or illegal. Judging by the number of people I've been debating who -continue- to believe that the McMichaels didn't do anything wrong, and that Arbery was guilty of burglary, it's quite easy for me to envision the perpetrators being sincere in their belief of their innocence.
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Bryan released the video. I don't think there could be any doubt that he thought it would help his friends: "Hell, we just wanted to talk to this guy and all of sudden outta the blue he tried to take Travis's shotgun. Who knows what's in these people's heads?"
 
Shadowdweller said:
I would have expected Bryan at least to have been much less forthcoming with the police had he actually realized that he had done anything wrong or illegal. Judging by the number of people I've been debating who -continue- to believe that the McMichaels didn't do anything wrong, and that Arbery was guilty of burglary, it's quite easy for me to envision the perpetrators being sincere in their belief of their innocence.
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Maybe so, but I distinguish between their belief in their righteousness (true, I suspect) and their belief that what they did should be lawful (also probably true) and their belief that what they did was lawful (which I greatly doubt). I suspect they think of themselves as special, and would be very uneasy if the rules they go by were allowed to others. And I would not be at all surprised to find that they believe incompatible things at once. I'm willing to bet they knew they were acting outside the law, but figured (and almost rightly) that they could get away with trumping the technicalities.
 
AFAIK Georgia has the death penalty. Is that off the table in this case?

ETA: I can answer my own question; the prosecutors didn't seek the death penalty so it's off.
 
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arthwollipot said:
By the time his father gets out of prison, the kid won't even remember him. How much do you remember of when you were 4?
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I have visceral memories going back as far as 2 years of age. I have distinct memories of friends, preschools, pets, and preschool teachers from that age. And a good bit of experience with kids of divorcees with sole (or highly lopsided) custody.

EDIT: Children do NOT forget influences as significant as parents (who are actually acting like parents).
 
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Shadowdweller said:
I have visceral memories going back as far as 2 years of age. I have distinct memories of friends, preschools, pets, and preschool teachers from that age. And a good bit of experience with kids of divorcees with sole (or highly lopsided) custody.
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Well okay then. I have only the vaguest of impressions of when I was 4, and almost nothing from before that. I guess different people are different, hey?
 
erlando said:
AFAIK Georgia has the death penalty. Is that off the table in this case?

ETA: I can answer my own question; the prosecutors didn't seek the death penalty so it's off.
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IANAL, but would that have come up yet, given that the sentencing phase hasn't happened yet?
 
Shadowdweller said:
Much as I'm breathing a sigh of relief at these verdicts; and much as I think the verdicts were necessary to deter the sort of dangerous and murderous behavior that lead to Arbery's death; and much as I wholeheartedly believe that Ahmaud Arbery's friends and family, and everyone else he touched deserve to know justice, I can't help but note that Travis McMichael has an innocent son who is young enough to need a car seat (or was at the time of the shooting). Who unknowingly lost both his father and grandfather forever over the course of the five minutes (?) of pursuit on the day Ahmaud Arbery died.
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Yes, but that's another negative consequence of the McMichaels' illegal, racist, criminal behavior in murdering an innocent man, rather than of the correct and just verdict delivered by a responsible jury who respect the law.

Dave
 
Shadowdweller said:
IANAL, but would that have come up yet, given that the sentencing phase hasn't happened yet?
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It has according to this https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/24/us/arbery-parole-murder-judge.html

Both types of murder charges carry the same penalty, which requires a judge to issue a life sentence but allows the judge to decide whether a defendant should have an opportunity for parole. Even if the judge grants the possibility of parole, the defendants would not be eligible under Georgia’s laws until they have been in prison for 30 years. Both charges can also result in the death penalty, but prosecutors did not seek it in this case.
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Craig4 said:
His dad is never getting out of prison. Felony murder and malice murder come with sentences of life without the possibility of parole.
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Both felony murder and malice murder carries a mandatory life sentence with minimum 30 years served but the judge can decide to grant the possibility of parole in both instances.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/24/us/arbery-parole-murder-judge.html

Both types of murder charges carry the same penalty, which requires a judge to issue a life sentence but allows the judge to decide whether a defendant should have an opportunity for parole. Even if the judge grants the possibility of parole, the defendants would not be eligible under Georgia’s laws until they have been in prison for 30 years. Both charges can also result in the death penalty, but prosecutors did not seek it in this case.
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Bob001 said:
So your position is that once any corrupt or incompetent prosecutor declines to file charges, no one else at any level of government should be able take a second look? Do you really want to invest such unlimited, unchallenged power in some local, often elected, prosecutor? Keep in mind that the prosecutor is now facing her own felony charges.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/prosecutor-indicted-misconduct-ahmaud-arbery-death-79797816


He committed no crime, and the good ol' boys had no reason to believe he did. They had no legal or moral right to confront him, let alone kill him. And you're telling us all we need to know about your ilk when you say it was "fantastic" that they "eliminated him."
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You have to remember there is only one "reason" behind all of Skeptictank's disgusting opinions, and that is "white is good, black is bad", there is nothing more sophisticated or rational than that simple mantra.

Everything is twisted to fit that, so if such a law were passed he'd want and expect that it would only apply to white people accused of crimes against black people. He is fine with black people simply being summarily executed if a white person suspects a black person of committing a crime, as demonstrated in this very thread.

He uses "mild" language but no matter how he tries to come across as "rational" folk shouldn't (and I know most here aren't) be fooled by his faux-rationality. His bland phrasing is exactly the same as the mob that shouts "kill the ******". Oh he'll try to say "no I just want separate countries for the "races" but that's a load of crap, he hates and detests black people, he considers them lesser than white people.

It's always the "reasonable" sounding ones that are the most virulent of racists, because they knowingly try to cloak their racism.
 
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