It's Homeopathy Awareness Week!

[Asolepius]

Upledger and Karni have done this research Les.

There are 8 PubMed citations for Upledger, and not a single abstract among them. Impossible to evaluate the data unless you can provide links to at least abstracts, ideally full texts. These citations are nearly all from J Am Osteopath Assoc which is hardly a prestigious medical journal. If your claims are true, they should be so earth-shaking that JAMA or even Nature should publish them.

 

[athon]

I may be many things, but arrogant is definitely not one of them.

I use my hands to feel things just like any other craniosacral therapist out there in practice.

www.craniosacral.co.uk

The others have put this into much better words than I could have. We're working from different ways of interpreting nature here, and one is far superior to the other. I know my senses alone are often not adequate for finding rationality in the universe, and to believe they are is indeed arrogant. You believe they are, in spite of having 'subjective' and 'objective' explained to you.

Science is about the ability to change your view in the face of ample objective, repeatable evidence. What would it take to change your mind?

Athon

 

[Sarah-I]

I actually use everything together. As I said, all practicing craniosacral therapists use their hands. I am no different in that respect. I engage my brain too and I also use my intuition which is a very large part.

I also use scientific evaluation when I need to.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I also use scientific evaluation when I need to.

So, you've run double-blind control studies? Or do you at least have some to refer to?

 

[athon]

I actually use everything together. As I said, all practicing craniosacral therapists use their hands. I am no different in that respect. I engage my brain too and I also use my intuition which is a very large part.

I also use scientific evaluation when I need to.

I don't think I can possibly comment on this at all. It speaks volumes in itself.

The scary thing is (actually, it was rather encouraging), I had a discussion with my year 7 about the topic of health and treatment with medicine, and most of them were horrified that anybody would treat the health of another based purely on subjective analysis using only the senses and their intuition. We've just done a few lessons on 'sensation vs. perception'. One the less bright students stunned me by saying 'what if the doctor told you that you had AIDS simply because he thought you looked like you had it...'.

Future's looking brighter already.

Athon

 

[Asolepius]

I actually use everything together. As I said, all practicing craniosacral therapists use their hands. I am no different in that respect. I engage my brain too and I also use my intuition which is a very large part.

I also use scientific evaluation when I need to.

Er Sarah - what's this `when I need to'? Should that not be always? What exactly is intuition? How does it differ from guesswork? It sounds as if you are guessing most of the time - which is exactly what I expected.

 

[Sarah-I]

Intuition is not guesswork at all and unfortunately it would appear that this is something that you would seem to have little experience of.

My practice is not guesswork, but I use my brain to work out what I am feeling with my hands, on what level the restriction lies, whether it is on a muscular/fascial level, an energetic level, or whether the nervous system is affected. I also use it to work out what part/parts of the body I then need to go ahead and treat.

It is an extremely profound treatment and the more I work with people, the deeper the treatment becomes. Sometimes they will need work at a more physical level and at other times they need a deeper treatment that will deal with emotional issues. I just follow where they need to go all the time.

The primary principle of craniosacral therapy is just being there and following the body wherever it wants to go and not imposing, however, I really would not expect you guys to understand any of this.

Yes and yes. There are trials that have been done by Upledger. I also plan to carry out my own research in the future.

 

[Donks]

The primary principle of craniosacral therapy is just being there and following the body wherever it wants to go and not imposing, however, I really would not expect you guys to understand any of this.

How about you help us understand? Start by defining this 'energy' of which you speak.

Yes and yes. There are trials that have been done by Upledger. I also plan to carry out my own research in the future.

Can't wait. If you're up to it, share your intended protocols with us, just so we can learn how real craniosacral therapy research is conducted.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Intuition is not guesswork at all and unfortunately it would appear that this is something that you would seem to have little experience of.

My practice is not guesswork, but I use my brain to work out what I am feeling with my hands, on what level the restriction lies, whether it is on a muscular/fascial level, an energetic level, or whether the nervous system is affected. I also use it to work out what part/parts of the body I then need to go ahead and treat.

It is an extremely profound treatment and the more I work with people, the deeper the treatment becomes. Sometimes they will need work at a more physical level and at other times they need a deeper treatment that will deal with emotional issues. I just follow where they need to go all the time.

The primary principle of craniosacral therapy is just being there and following the body wherever it wants to go and not imposing, however, I really would not expect you guys to understand any of this.

Yes and yes. There are trials that have been done by Upledger. I also plan to carry out my own research in the future.

More banal piffle and still no comment on the 22 citations on Pubmed to which your attention was drawn.

So, yet more evasion and misrepresentation.

 

[Donks]

More banal piffle and still no comment on the 22 citations on Pubmed to which your attention was drawn.

So, yet more evasion and misrepresentation.

I tought that when she asked "What was it you wanted to know so urgently that couldn't wait then?" it was more of a rethorical question. She didn't care much about the answer, and even less about replying to the actual questions raised.

 

[athon]

Intuition is not guesswork at all and unfortunately it would appear that this is something that you would seem to have little experience of.

Intuition is little more than educated guesswork. It is not backed up by reason, being more of an emotional link established by previous experiences. It can often be right, of course. To say I have not experienced intuition is more of a personal stab you're making, and something that again does nothing to further your argument.

I simply understand that intuition is not reliable enough to be basing the health of another on. If I reported my test results when I worked in the lab purely 'intuitively', some people would have died.

My practice is not guesswork, but I use my brain to work out what I am feeling with my hands, on what level the restriction lies, whether it is on a muscular/fascial level, an energetic level, or whether the nervous system is affected. I also use it to work out what part/parts of the body I then need to go ahead and treat.

You still don't see the arrogance. Your senses can be tricked. Your brain interprets patterns, and can be wrong. I know that of myself, and when it seriously matters (as in the health and welfare of another human) I will keep in mind that perception is fallible. I may use intuition when picking the best ingredients for my evening meal, because if I'm wrong it hardly matters. I won't use intuition when I'm testing a person's blood for an illness. If I'm wrong, that person gets very sick.

It is an extremely profound treatment and the more I work with people, the deeper the treatment becomes. Sometimes they will need work at a more physical level and at other times they need a deeper treatment that will deal with emotional issues. I just follow where they need to go all the time.
*snip*

How do you differentiate the claims of others who state they have the ability to heal / treat / diagnose through unsupported, 'intuitive' means? Therapeutic Touch, for instance. They support their own claims in the same manner you are; surely you're not going to insinuate TT works as well?

Athon

 

[delusionworld]

.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Hello delusionworld? And I was looking forward to seeing that post

 

[delusionworld]

Sorry. realized someone else said exact same thing a few entries back.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh, but that doesn't really matter. You can quote them and say why you agree as well. That generates discussion, is discussion, whatever. It's all good.

 

[clarsct]

Intuition=emotion

Faith=emotion

So could I logically conclude that Intuition=Faith?

Is what we're talking about here faith-based medicine?

Doesn't this sound a whole bunch like Theraputic Touch?

Just asking.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Intuition=emotion

Strictly speaking intuition means having access to the truth that is both direct and bypasses the rational mind.

NHCoraHSarah seems to have bypassed her rational mind very effectively, but whether she has genuinely accessed the truth is readily testable by ordinary means. Both craniosacral therapy and homeopathy have been shown not to be true, so whatever she has accessed it ain't the truth.

Once again, their emotionally appealing language cannot conceal the lie.

 

[Sarah-I]

Craniosacral therapy has never been demonstrated not to be true. In fact, to the contrary, Upledger has done research over the last 20 years that proves the opposite.

He has teamed up with other scientists, the physicist Zvi Karni and Upledger conducted research together, with Karni even making a machine for measurements that correlated everything on the graph that Upledger was feeling whilst treating patients.

So no, craniosacral therapy has never been demonstrated not to work.

 

[CFLarsen]

Craniosacral therapy has never been demonstrated not to be true. In fact, to the contrary, Upledger has done research over the last 20 years that proves the opposite.

He has teamed up with other scientists, the physicist Zvi Karni and Upledger conducted research together, with Karni even making a machine for measurements that correlated everything on the graph that Upledger was feeling whilst treating patients.

So no, craniosacral therapy has never been demonstrated not to work.

How is your migraine doing?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Craniosacral therapy has never been demonstrated not to be true. In fact, to the contrary, Upledger has done research over the last 20 years that proves the opposite.

He has teamed up with other scientists, the physicist Zvi Karni and Upledger conducted research together, with Karni even making a machine for measurements that correlated everything on the graph that Upledger was feeling whilst treating patients.

So no, craniosacral therapy has never been demonstrated not to work.

I have always wondered if you are cynically dishonest or just a scatterbrain. I'm mostly inclined to believe the latter, but this post is too sily. You cannot have posted and lurked here (I will not be so charitable as to use the term debated) without noticing the little thig about burden of proof. It is not up to anybody to disprove CST, or anything else for that matter. Invisible pink unicorns have also never been disproved.

Hans