Israeli Army has Doubts

[a_unique_person]

I am sure that if this madness ever ends, we will have a civil war in Israel. I am positive about it BUT I have started to believe that there is a point in every nation's History that it has to clear up things and this is possible only through a civil war. The Greeks called this katharsis and as far as I know there is no katharsis without a bloodshed. I am not afraid of the civil war. In fact the outbreak of a civil war would mean the end of rotten apsects in the jewish mentality. I am sure you understand what I mean.

What do you mean?

I also don't think there has to be a civil war. In the case of the religious extremists, I think the secular Jews are being bullied more than they realise, and would be an easier mob to stand up to than they realise. These guys are all bluster and cowardice, IMHO. They won't even fight in the army that they demand protects them.

However, if you are correct, and there is to be a civil war, then I would be very afraid. Anyone mad enough to start a war in these circumstances might having an itchy trigger finger on the Nukes.

I would just note that, although it has a short history, Australia has never had a civil war. I think it is better for it. Just look at how long the after effects of the American civil war persist.

There were attempts to have a coup, during the Great Depression. The one man they needed, General Monash, who was the most respected military man in the country and could have had anything he wanted if he had gone along with the plotters, did not back them, but upheld his duty to defend Australia, not divide it. I have mentioned him before, (he was Jewish, BTW), but without him, Australia would have gone the politically unstable route of South America, with it's recurrent bloodbaths and violence.

 

[demon]

Oh well, lets not forget you can count on this guy if you feel like going down the civil war road.
A Jewish anti-Semite eh? I think people like this are a little more dangerous than the European anti-Semite fantasies that are the popular currency in this forum.

quote:
Jewish tensions boil over
Wednesday 26 November 2003, 15:56 Makka Time, 12:56 GMT

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef: All evil stems from Ashkenazis

Attacks on two synagogues and a school have caused various Jewish groups around the world to start blaming each other for deteriorating security.

The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-Orthodox Shas party for Sephardic Jews has accused Ashkenazi Jews of being the source of all evil, according to the Maariv daily on Wednesday.

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said during a lecture on the Torah in Jerusalem that "all evil stems from the Ashkenazis".

The 80-year-old rabbi is not a representative of some fringe movement - Shas has 11 MPs in the 120-member Israeli parliament.

The party claims to represent Sephardic Jews from the Mediterranean and Middle East and Rabbi Yosef is considered a leading expert on the Torah.

Fire and brimestone

The religious scholar has previously caused controversy with a speech in which he called for Arabs to go to hell.

But this time he targeted Israel’s Ashkenazi Jews – who migrated from central and eastern Europe following World War II.

"You the Jewish Ashkenazis, you have been in the West, in hell. Why did you come here? What you say or do is of little importance," he said.

Internationally, tensions are just as high.

Scores of self-styled “Torah True Jews” based in the United States have criticised Israel’s continuing attempt to refer to itself as ‘the Jewish State’.

Jewish anti-Zionists

In a high profile email campaign last Wednesday, thousands of people received a stark warning of "the danger Zionists were placing on Jews worldwide".

Rabbi Dovid Feldman told Aljazeera.net that a silent majority of Jews opposed the Zionist ideology which led to the creation of modern Israel.

Calling themselves True Torah
Jews, some rabbis denounce Israel

Feldman claims there are many more rabbis and others who sincerely practice their faith that hold similar opinions all round the world.

The message urged would-be-emigrants not to believe that events in Istanbul or France “make it necessary for Jews to leave their native countries and move to the most dangerous place on Earth for the Jewish People.”

Response to Sharon

The campaign came in response to comments made on 17 November by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The PM told journalists at a hotel in Rome: “The best solution to anti-Semitism is immigration to Israel. It is the only place on Earth where Jews can live as Jews.”

The invitation has been received coldly by The True Torah campaign and by some eminent religious scholars.

Feldman and the late rabbi, Yoel Teitelbaum, extensively promoted a theological position that requires Jews to condemn the foundation of the secular state of Israel.

The rabbi claims the Zionist movement rejects all of the fundamental principles of Torah and insists Jews do not need a state of their own, adding the very establishment of a “Jewish” state is a grave violation of tradition and law.

Second campaign

In a letter addressed to US President George Bush and published in the Washington Post in September, the website "jewsagainstzionism" applauded the sentiment.

“They [Israelis] don’t represent the Jewish people in any way whatsoever. They have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people.

“We deplore acts and policies carried out by those who – misusing the name of Israel – have substituted the ideal of nationalism for the teaching of the holy Torah.”

The website also criticised Tel Aviv’s policy of filling people with fear and paranoia in order to realise their goal of bringing more immigrants into the country who are to “serve as cannon fodder in the Zionist war against the Palestinians”.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2943BEB3-FF4E-4436-B5E8-91C494187230.htm
____________________________________________________________________________

mwuahahahaaaaaa!!!!
'Eeez are good, eez are good, eees eberneza good'
Israel and the huge Extacy market?
Maybe this is a turf war between the 'bloods and the cips' of South Central TA?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by demon
Jewish tensions boil over
Wednesday 26 November 2003, 15:56 Makka Time, 12:56 GMT

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef: All evil stems from Ashkenazis

ALWAYS trust the Arab media to learn about Jewish thought. There is no better source of information!

Originally posted by demon
Scores of self-styled “Torah True Jews” based in the United States have criticised Israel’s continuing attempt to refer to itself as ‘the Jewish State’.

Jewish anti-Zionists

In a high profile email campaign last Wednesday, thousands of people received a stark warning of "the danger Zionists were placing on Jews worldwide".

Rabbi Dovid Feldman told Aljazeera.net that a silent majority of Jews opposed the Zionist ideology which led to the creation of modern Israel.

Rabbi Dovid Feldman represents the Neturei Karta. I told you about them, remember?

Originally posted by demon
Second campaign

In a letter addressed to US President George Bush and published in the Washington Post in September, the website "jewsagainstzionism" applauded the sentiment.

Does buying advertising space count as being published? I don’t think so, but it’s a neat trick to try to borrow some of the credibility of a major publication.

We also talked about Jews against Zionism before. It’s one guy, Russell Waxman, who tries very hard to make it seem like he’s an organization rather than just one guy with a web site.

 

[demon]

"ALWAYS trust the Arab media to learn about Jewish thought. There is no better source of information!"

ALWAYS eh? Hmm, you`d like to think so wouldn`t you.
You imply the Arabs can`t tell the truth ? Heavens forbid, do you know how many of them have the vote in France? How awful!

"I told you about them, remember?"...and?...Your point?... Uri Geller told me about spoon bending...Tony Blair told me about WMD being launched in 45 mins...I don`t succumb to appeals from authority if that`s what you are expecting, least of all a Zionazi apologist.

Anyway, you are avoiding the point that some Jews are total fvcking nutters that are actually more dangerous than any fairytail anti-Semitism you want to accuse people of.

You have nothing to say about Rabbi Ovadia Yosef? He doesnt fit into your neat little world of Holocaust Industry defences does he? He kind of blows the lid of it all.
You got nothing Mycroft, or the rest of the Zionist apologists here...just a litany of regurgitated half truths and lies and a transparant recourse to semantic games and nit picking history.

I can tell you fellow, you don`t fool anyone who has any real involvement in this sad sorry saga...that`s what makes it so sad.

 

[Cleopatra]

What's up Capel Dodger?

Do you get upset when you realize that your theories regarding remote countries concern real people with real lives?

If you had some religiosity in you, it would be easier to understand that some people never had the opportunity to create their own History because irrational hatred kept them at the margin.

I have told you many times before. Everybody hasn't been born in a Metropolis. Some people lived in the cyclon, some people had seen their lives changing within five minutes and they were unable to do anything.

Don't lecture me about History. "You" read about History ( not specifically you, but people who are in the same condition ). So, "you" read history "I" live it.

Have you still not got the point that I don't give a monkey's if he's Welsh or Jewish? He a damned Tory with the look of a cat-lover and that's all I need to know. I don't care about people's religion or nationality. People should be judged by their natures not some inherited label.

I was joking of course and you know it. People should be judged by their nature? That is funny. I guess that apart from other things you are in the position to judge other people's nature too.

"Psychopath", not "paranoid". What's your point? Sharon is murderous gangster. Just listen to him and look at his record. What Arafat is has no bearing on it.

Are you suggesting that he is paranoid by nature and he doesn't just respond to the violence of the other side? This is my point.If you claim that Sharon is evil by nature you will have to prove it.

I can only assume it's your religiosity that gives you the impression that life and history are not in out hands. You put more store in symbols such as nation and religion than you do in real people. The individual interest eclipsed by the national interest, and the cost in blood and pain? Well worth paying. The Soul of the Nation will be forged the stronger by the sacrifice. Bugger that.

I have alrteady replied to that. I have never seen you complaining about the fact that some people --like the Jews-- never had the opportunity to create their own History even in the societies they lived before the war. As for Nationalism knock it off ok? Knock it off or do us the honor for a change to show us what people should had done instead of creating national states.

You are not afraid, so bugger those that are afraid and will still get caught up in it. Let's be frank here, these aspects of "jewish mentality" only exist in people, so when you speak of eliminating them you mean eliminating certain types of Jews.

Again if you had some religiosity in you you'd know that mentalities do change.

The most likely result of the civil war will be domination by the settlers and the other followers of the New Judaism - the nationalist, bigotted, blood-and-iron version. Those Israelis that want a life for themselves and are in a position to do so will leave. The result will be a horror story.

I am not so sure about it. If you knew more about the Israeli society you' wouldn't jump into conclusions that easily.

Knock yourself out.

I am glad you see it that way. You should have known better when you were repeatedly posting the things you did.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by demon
"ALWAYS trust the Arab media to learn about Jewish thought. There is no better source of information!"

ALWAYS eh? Hmm, you`d like to think so wouldn`t you.
You imply the Arabs can`t tell the truth ? Heavens forbid, do you know how many of them have the vote in France? How awful!

Wipe the froth off your mouth; I imply that the Arab press is not a good source of information of Jewish thought. If you read something more into that, that’s on you.

Originally posted by demon
Anyway, you are avoiding the point that some Jews are total fvcking nutters that are actually more dangerous than any fairytail anti-Semitism you want to accuse people of.

Yet your article quotes the nutters of Judaism. Neturei Karta? Oh, please! It’s not a coincidence that the article quotes them without identifying their organization, nor is it a coincidence that the article says that the Jews against Zionism letter to President Bush was published in the Washington Post without mentioning that it was a paid advertisement. Just like you, they’re not interested in the truth.

Originally posted by demon
You have nothing to say about Rabbi Ovadia Yosef? He doesnt fit into your neat little world of Holocaust Industry defences does he? He kind of blows the lid of it all.

Does he? How?

Originally posted by demon
You got nothing Mycroft, or the rest of the Zionist apologists here...just a litany of regurgitated half truths and lies and a transparant recourse to semantic games and nit picking history.

Nit picking history. I’ll take that as a compliment. I like being known for attention to detail.

Originally posted by demon
I can tell you fellow, you don`t fool anyone who has any real involvement in this sad sorry saga...that`s what makes it so sad.

Okay, I’ll bite. What’s your involvement?

 

[demon]

"Nit picking history. I’ll take that as a compliment. I like being known for attention to detail."

Don`t take it as a compliment from me, it was anything but.
My comment had nothing to do with detail, more about what color tie Barak was wearing at the Oslo Accords,

It`s journalistic and hack eyed, and it gets passed because we have the sad mass media and decetiful simpletons in attendance, plus the fully paid up members of the Holocaust Industry. What a shame.

 

[Cleopatra]

demon instead of trolling and playing this old broken record of yours regarding the Holocaust Industry why don't you get seriously involved in a debate?

I know that sock-puppets are not supposed to debate but to troll but give it a try to debate as a Palestinian.

Be a unique sock puppet!

 

[demon]

Why do you think I`m a sock puppet?
Why does it suprise you that when you refer to "checkpoints" as as an inconvenience I find that trolling too.
I`m not interested in swapping insults, well not anymore anyway.

To be frank, my problem with your position is that your professed liberalism allows, excuses and supports the ongoing racist and colonial policies of Israel.

 

[Cleopatra]

Well, demon, let me repeat to you why I think that you are a sockpuppet.

Your English is never the same in two messages. You pretend the foreigner but sometimes when you are in a hurry or when you are in the middle of an antisemitic crisis, your English improve significantly.

Also, you never debate. You jump in the threads only to upset people and usually in order to bash me.

If you disagree with my ideas you have the option to debate them but you never debate because it's difficult to maintain a sockpuppet in the Politics Forum without being busted.

You don't bother me anymore, I thought that you could do better than that but I was mistaken.

Of course you should be ashamed of yourself. A man at your age should know better but hatred can't only harm you but it can make you appear ridiculous in the eyes of people that have half your age.

 

[demon]

I pretend the foreinger? I`m English born and bred.
I`ve discussed many an issue on these forums, thankfully some have been more fruitfull that the Middle East question. As I said, I`m not into swapping insults anymore, it`s wearisome and boring but I wouldn`t be to quick to point out the weaknesses in other peoples debating methods.
I`ve been following Capel and Unique`s efforts to educate you for a long time now and I have to say, they have the patience of saints...I dont really know why they bother.

Incidently, your family are missing some art works? If they ever get them back (I hope they do), and they need some work doing, I restore oils if that`s any use to you, I`ll give you a good deal.

 

[Cleopatra]

Please, demon do me the favor to join the two gentlemen's efforts to educate me.

Bring me examples, show me where I am wrong.

Thanks for offering to restore the paintings but according to Unique's education,those evil rabbis will force me to sell them in order to sponsor the causes of the Holocaust industry.

Oh well, that's life, I guess.Now go to bed, you shoudn't wake-up that early on Sundays

 

[demon]

Out of interest, nothing to do with the Holocaust Industry that is, (real or imagined), what sort of art work are we talking about here?
Genuine question, not being a troll here ok?

 

[Cleopatra]

My great grand father was a Sephardic Jew of the Nederlands, he lived in Amsterdam until he fell in love with a Greek lady and he followed her to Salonika where he opened the first bookstore in the Balkans and in Southeastern Europe. The bookstore still exists.

He was a dealer of gems but when he got tired of travelling around the world he got involved it the Art Market too. He was interested in paintings mostly. We are missing four Dutches that they were decorating his house in Salonika and they were stolen by Max Merten who is known as the "Butcher of Salonika" of course everything he owned in his shop in Amsterdam--gems, artwork and unfortunately and most importantly his notes-- was stolen too but we don't have a catalogue of those, so we can't claim them.My grandmother managed to hide some things before get arrested, things that weren't valuable for Nazis compairing to the the things they found in the house but they are priceless for me today.

If we find them, I will sell them and with the money I will open a restaurant of Sephardic Cuisine in Salonika.I think that this is the best monument for them, they'd love it.

 

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:

Do you get upset when you realize that your theories regarding remote countries concern real people with real lives?

I do get tetchy sometimes, especially when I'm called "prejudiced" and generally misrepresented. Of course, my position is that real people with real lives are far more important than symbols like "nation" or "religion". I don't know how I can put it more plainly.

If you had some religiosity in you, it would be easier to understand that some people never had the opportunity to create their own History because irrational hatred kept them at the margin.

Are you actually claiming that the Jews have no history? The Jewish community has surely been the most remarkable phenomenon in the human story. Empires come and go, concepts such as feudalism and nationalism come and go, and all are just further examples of stock products. Yet since the time of Moses and his confederates (not without evolution, of course) this unique idea of a community defined by loyalty to a shared Law has survived. Kingship and nation were add-ons that didn't survive - they couldn't, since they put the community into a competition it couldn't win. Making a fetish of Jerusalem and the Temple wasn't necessary, or helpful, either. All through history we find Jews rising to prominence in business, politics, science and philosophy. (In fact, it's resentment of just such success that is often put forward as a reason for anti-semitism.) What other group of its size has comparable prominence in modern times?

Don't lecture me about History. "You" read about History ( not specifically you, but people who are in the same condition ). So, "you" read history "I" live it.

I do read history, and I think about it, and I discuss it. I wish to understand it. I don't want it to provide some desired story-line that somehow enhances my own self-image. As to "living" history, presumably you mean that you let the past dictate who you are and how you live. It's an easy way of avoiding making your own judgements and decisions, I suppose, but I prefer to live in the present.

I guess that apart from other things you are in the position to judge other people's nature too.

Yes, I do make judgements about people's natures. Don't you?

Are you suggesting that he is paranoid by nature and he doesn't just respond to the violence of the other side? This is my point.If you claim that Sharon is evil by nature you will have to prove it.

When there was a prospect of a settlement after Oslo, Sharon denounced it immediately and did everything he could to undermine it, not because of Arab violence but because he cannot countenance any solution short of complete possession of Greater Israel. Is that evil? He knows that achieving this will cause death, destruction and tragedy on a huge scale but he continues; is that evil? He sent the Falange into Sabra and Chatila knowing they were eager for atrocity, and ignored reports of what was happening (as if he didn't know); evil? I'd say yes.

Knock it off or do us the honor for a change to show us what people should had done instead of creating national states.

Sadly it is not in power to demonstrate an alternative to nation states. Were I given a chance to try something different I would favour a system of regions and cities that rule themselves democratically, with larger groupings to decide on issues that are not confined to one region, all the way up to a world organisation that exists to guarantee basic human rights at the local level (with the ability to enforce them). Transparency of operation at all levels would be crucial, as would an educational system that taught truth rather than nationalist myths. In its way, the USA is a trial attempt at this. The EU is moving in that sort of direction. *The UN is a broken reed, of course.)

I have mentioned this before, but it doesn't seem to have got through.

 

[rikzilla]

Mr Manifesto
"Well, it's probably a crap analogy, but I thought I'd float the idea anyway."

It`s not a crap analogy at all.
Very fitting considering the history of the much vaunted Jewish persecution. Sums up the perverse nature of the Zionazis very well ie. the repression and bullying of a much weaker victim.
The number of children murdered by the IDF just adds an extra unfortunate but fitting layer to the analogy.

Zionazis?

Demon,...go back to your pals at Stormfront.org.

 

[demon]

Hi Rik,
Put the porn video back on and crack open another beer...aahhh, isn`t that better?

 

[Cleopatra]

I do get tetchy sometimes, especially when I'm called "prejudiced" and generally misrepresented. Of course, my position is that real people with real lives are far more important than symbols like "nation" or "religion". I don't know how I can put it more plainly.

Hello Capel Dodger

How do you expect me to call you when you suggest that the victims of the worse kind of massacre in Human's History are to blame for what happened to them? How do you want me to call you when you suggest that Weitzmann is to blame about the Holocaust and in that way you claim that antisemitism appeared in History in the 20th ce? How you dismiss centures of procecutions against the Jews? How you overlook the transformation of the Religious antisemitism to the official ideology of the German State since 19th ce?

Nope, we will have to resolve this. I will start a thread tonight when I return home. The old house with its ghosts inspires me.

Are you actually claiming that the Jews have no history? The Jewish community has surely been the most remarkable phenomenon in the human story. Empires come and go, concepts such as feudalism and nationalism come and go, and all are just further examples of stock products. Yet since the time of Moses and his confederates (not without evolution, of course) this unique idea of a community defined by loyalty to a shared Law has survived. Kingship and nation were add-ons that didn't survive - they couldn't, since they put the community into a competition it couldn't win.

I knew that you'd say that. The profile of the Jewish communities was shaped by centuries of procecution and misery. The phaenomenon is unique indeed but it turned out that way because the hatred against the Jews is unique in History.

Making a fetish of Jerusalem and the Temple wasn't necessary, or helpful, either.

Of course you are wrong but I apologize we don't fit to your personal theories.I sound ironic but I am not. Such comments from your part make me furious.

All through history we find Jews rising to prominence in business, politics, science and philosophy. (In fact, it's resentment of just such success that is often put forward as a reason for anti-semitism.) What other group of its size has comparable prominence in modern times?

The devotion of the Jews to education is another result of the continuous procecutions. It's not that Jews are smarter than other people. I was born in 1970 and yet my grandmother was pissing me off by reminding me all the time that the only wealth in life is education. "Procecutions occur" she said" you can lose your fortune but never your education" Education was the only thing that none could steal from them.

I do read history, and I think about it, and I discuss it. I wish to understand it. I don't want it to provide some desired story-line that somehow enhances my own self-image. As to "living" history, presumably you mean that you let the past dictate who you are and how you live. It's an easy way of avoiding making your own judgements and decisions, I suppose, but I prefer to live in the present.

The present is meaningless if you don't put it in a timeframe.Present is meaningless with the stories of your ancestors. Living History BTW means that today I live in Greece and within an hour somebody forces me to go. I understand that it's difficult for a Welsh to understand that. Has anybody ever come to your relatives, to your parents and asked them to leave their house just because they were Welsh? Has anybody of your family faced death just because he was Welsh or Christian?

I have told you before , Capel Dodger. You are privileged! I envy you.I am not afraid of anything, I am not afraid to die but my only phobia is that one day somebody will knock on my door and he will ask me to leave.

Yes, I do make judgements about people's natures. Don't you?

Come-on Capel Dodger, only religious people make judgements about people's natures, you know that.

When there was a prospect of a settlement after Oslo, Sharon denounced it immediately and did everything he could to undermine it, not because of Arab violence but because he cannot countenance any solution short of complete possession of Greater Israel.

Do you forget how Ariel Sharon won the elections? Well, I don't. The Palestinian side made Barak look like an idiot. He is not very smart but one can discuss with Barak. But no. Palestinians forced the Israeli people to vote for the person who promised to protect them.

Probably when you take your walks in Cardiff you are not afraid for a bomb to explode . Again, you don't know how it is to leave with the continuous fear of death. In case of the suicide terrorism, if you are lucky you die. Because none ever talks about those who survive those bombs that are packed with steel nails...

Sadly it is not in power to demonstrate an alternative to nation states. Were I given a chance to try something different I would favour a system of regions and cities that rule themselves democratically, with larger groupings to decide on issues that are not confined to one region, all the way up to a world organisation that exists to guarantee basic human rights at the local level (with the ability to enforce them). Transparency of operation at all levels would be crucial, as would an educational system that taught truth rather than nationalist myths. In its way, the USA is a trial attempt at this. The EU is moving in that sort of direction. *The UN is a broken reed, of course.)

I have mentioned this before, but it doesn't seem to have got through.

First of all, you haven't mentioned it before because I would remember it. Second this deserves a thread of its own. I don't disagree but I think that I am able to demonstrate why such a system wouldn't work on the benefits of the citizens.Will you wish me again to knock myself out?

Capel Dodger we will never agree on that matter but I don't mind when we disagree. I don't intend to burn any grey cells to defend Israel and Sharon but don't forget that I don't accept the tinest comment against the jewish people that lived in Europe before the war.

 

[Cleopatra]

Capel Dodger

I started a new thread about antisemitism here , you will be notified by a PM too

 

[hgc]

...

The devotion of the Jews to education is another result of the continuous procecutions. It's not that Jews are smarter than other people. I was born in 1970 and yet my grandmother was pissing me off by reminding me all the time that the only wealth in life is education. "Procecutions occur" she said" you can lose your fortune but never your education" Education was the only thing that none could steal from them.
...

Not necessarily relevant to this thread, but I prefer the explanation that Jews tended throughout history to be educated simply because it's a religious requirement. All Jewish men were always expected to be able to read the Torah and Talmud and other religious texts. That's the reason to teach them to read. This is practically unique in world history. This also may explain why Jews are not likely to be found in occupations thoughout much of history that didn't require literacy, such as agriculture, as there were much better economic opportunities in other occupations.

This also may help to explain why there aren't so many Jews. To educate your children is and always was expensive. People tend to flee expensive obligations. Some would say that lots of Jews became non-Jews throughout history to escape this requirement.