Israeli Army has Doubts

[Cleopatra]

It can't be a bad book. It was just his impressions of growing up as a young boy into Nazism.

Poor boy! In that case he wasn't a Nazi. We don't call every German who served the Army in the war Nazi. At least I don't.

Crikey, it was just a passage from a book I happened to be reading at the time. I was just struck by how he saw humiliation such as the Jews were subject to as inhuman. They had to wear the distinctive badge, would not dare to impose their presence on anyone, and had to subject themselves to routine harrassment, not to mention the continual portrayal of them as the source of all evil in the world, so that they were fair game for anyone to attack and insult and kill with impunity.

Now this is why I say that you behave to me as if I am a caricature of Shyloc. You used this passage on purpose. Just to provoke. If the passage can't show any similarities between Israel and Nazi Germany why you used it? Why?

If you insist that the check points in the occupied territories remind you of the Nazis then you will have to show the similarities between the two cases one by one.

I think the Palestinians experience real danger too.

The do experience a danger but it's of different nature. If the PLO guerillas didn't use the population as their human shields they wouldn't have to suffer anything. You can't say the same about the Israeli citizens.

Ex Nazi, if you don't mind. He was brought up to hate the Jews by his father.

There is no such a thing as an ex-Nazi. We don't use the term ex-murderer either, so the term ex-Nazi is not valid.

The fact is, the Germans believed what Hitler and his propaganda machine told them to believe. Right up to the end of the war, many of them still believed they could win, even though the country was being bombed to oblivion.

I am sorry but the majority of the German people were antisemites and a reason why they embraced Hitler was because of the later's open antisemitism. It was their leader.

I think I used the Judea and Samaria terms because that is what the area is called by Israel.

You think wrong. Although the right term geographically is Judea and Samaria we don't use those terms anymore for political reasons. Those who use them in Israel though are much fewer than those Arabs who wish the annihilation of Israel judging by the polls who show high rates of support of Hamas action among the Arabs.

 

[Cleopatra]

BTW Ariel promises a State to the Palestinians if they stop the attacks

Of course, whether he wants the State or not it's not up to him anymore.

 

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:

Thanks for you lecture it's time for questions now.

Do you believe that Israel can be compared to the Germany of the Nazi period?

No need to thank me; any time you want a lecture, I'm your man.

This may be a problem of semantics. Israel obviously isn't the same as Nazi Germany was. Both are/were ruled by psycopathic monsters on the back of minority support (made possible by a flawed democracy), but Sharon is less of a megalomaniac and anyway doesn't yet have absolute power. Both officially promote an attitude towards the outside world based on hate and fear (cf Sharon's recent rants), but there is still an effective opposition that can voice another opinion. The de-humanisation of other "races" and social groups is another commonality; again, that can be and is opposed. They're clearly not the same (no two states are). They can, however, be compared with other to see what commonalities and differences exist.

My lecture was concerned with the deliberate step-by-step process that turns ordinary people into oppressors. That's not unique to the Nazis, I could also cite Milosevic from more recent times. To quote from Ben Gurion, with reference to the expulsion of Arabs (code-named "transfer"):

The thing must be done now [1937] - and the first step - perhaps the crucial step - is conditioning ourselves for its implementation.

Which is pretty chilling, considering how this thread started.

 

[Cleopatra]

First of all Capel Dodger

You will have to prove that Ariel Sharon has expressed his willingness to annihilate the Palestinians the way Hilter has declared his willingness to annihilate the Jews long before the Nazi Party took over Germany.

You speculate but you know very well that you cannot support claims on speculations.

I can quote Hitler declaring that Jews are not humans and they must go, can you quote me Ariel or any other Israeli official declaring something similar for the Palestinians?

Also, the step by step process can't work in the case of Israel.

You seem to ignore that Germany as the rest of Europe carried a long antisemitic tradition.

The step by step process needs the help of the society and whatever you might believe about the jews, we do not hate other people the way other people hate us for centuries now, unless you provide evidence for the contrary.

But you didn't reply to my question. Are Israelis Nazis?

BTW I want to ask you something regarding the Welsh candidate of the conservatives, do you want me to do it here or do you want me to revive this unique thread about Wales. I prefer the former. I kinda missed this discussion...

 

[Cleopatra]

Capel Dodger

Another thread , reminded of an example that shows that what you named "step by step process", needs the collaboration of the population.

During the '30ies many German mayors hired poets in order to compose verses where the word Jew would rhyme with the word " pig", " garlic" and "dirt" in order to make the numerous signs that ordered Jews to do this or that in their cities more pleasant to the locals.

In Israel the population is not engaged in such poetry contests. Of course we are not the land of the civilized Europeans, we are not the land who gave birth to a Beethoven,a Bach, a Schiller but if we had such tendancies you would have read about them in "Guardian"

 

[a_unique_person]

This young boy was taught those rhymes. I was wondering where they came from. He even recited one once, and felt ashamed of himself.

I was wondering if you have heard about the Palestinians being referred to as 'cockroaches'?

 

[a_unique_person]

First of all Capel Dodger

You will have to prove that Ariel Sharon has expressed his willingness to annihilate the Palestinians the way Hilter has declared his willingness to annihilate the Jews long before the Nazi Party took over Germany.

You speculate but you know very well that you cannot support claims on speculations.

I can quote Hitler declaring that Jews are not humans and they must go, can you quote me Ariel or any other Israeli official declaring something similar for the Palestinians?

You have never done it, but the claim has been made many times that Palestinians do not exist. They are really this, or that. Nobody lived there. There were only a few nomads. They didn't do anything to the country. They had no culture or history. Intellectual genocide.

 

[Cleopatra]

Unique

Again your prejudice doesn't let you think clearly and it seems that you miss the point.

Capel Dodger, mentioned correctly that Germany didn't turn into a Nazi regime into a day. The process can be described as a "step by step" process.

Whilst he admits that he can't trace such a process in Israel because the legislation and above all the mentality of the population would't consent into that, he doesn't miss the opportunity to spill his poison for something totally irrelevant.

Capel Dodger tends to turn himself into a case study. If somebody wants to see what prejudice does to a clever person he should study CD's posts about " that" matter.

You do a far more lousy job by trying to immitate him. Even if the sporadic examples you mention were true, they don't constitute a proof that there is anything in the Israeli society that could remind you of the Germany of the Nazis, unless you are terribly prejudiced towards Israel.

 

[a_unique_person]

BTW Ariel promises a State to the Palestinians if they stop the attacks

Of course, whether he wants the State or not it's not up to him anymore.

Not quite true. As the USA, "USA, USA", has shown, might is right. And Israel has the might.

 

[a_unique_person]

Unique

Again your prejudice doesn't let you think clearly and it seems that you miss the point.

There are a lot of points floating around here. Which point have I missed?

Capel Dodger, mentioned correctly that Germany didn't turn into a Nazi regime into a day. The process can be described as a "step by step" process.

Whilst he admits that he can't trace such a process in Israel because the legislation and above all the mentality of the population would't consent into that, he doesn't miss the opportunity to spill his poison for something totally irrelevant.

What happened to the Germans, who are just ordinary people like you and me, is a warning to all people.

Capel Dodger tends to turn himself into a case study. If somebody wants to see what prejudice does to a clever person he should study CD's posts about " that" matter.

Not necessarily true. If someone was to observe that Israel might not be all that is good and holy in the world, when the press is saying it is, then they are taking a definite risk in saying so.

 

[Cleopatra]

There are a lot of points floating around here. Which point have I missed?

The point of my posts.

What happened to the Germans, who are just ordinary people like you and me, is a warning to all people.

The reason why what happened to the Germans cannot happen to you and me is because we don't live in the specific society that was fiercly and continously antisemitic since the Middle Ages.

You might know that when Nazis came to power, Jews suffered humiliations in various countries. Why do you think that the citizens of some countries like Denmark or Greece didn't find the Nazi occupation of their country as a good opportunity to clear -up their differences with the Jews? Because antisemitism in those societies was marginal and not dominant as it was in Germany and in Central Europe.

Not necessarily true. If someone was to observe that Israel might not be all that is good and holy in the world, when the press is saying it is, then they are taking a definite risk in saying so.

I am sorry but I don't understand. It is one thing to criticize a policy of a country and another thing to blame the victims of Holocaust for what happened to them as Capel Dodger has repeatedly done in this forum.

 

[a_unique_person]

The point of my posts.

An Excellent Point! It reminds me of some of the more pertinent points I have myself made.

The reason why what happened to the Germans cannot happen to you and me is because we don't live in the specific society that was fiercly and continously antisemitic since the Middle Ages.

You might know that when Nazis came to power, Jews suffered humiliations in various countries. Why do you think that the citizens of some countries like Denmark or Greece didn't find the Nazi occupation of their country as a good opportunity to clear -up their differences with the Jews? Because antisemitism in those societies was marginal and not dominant as it was in Germany and in Central Europe.



I am sorry but I don't understand. It is one thing to criticize a policy of a country and another thing to blame the victims of Holocaust for what happened to them as Capel Dodger has repeatedly done in this forum.

I think that Capels only problem is that blaming victims is only criticised for certain groups at certain times.

 

[Cleopatra]

An Excellent Point! It reminds me of some of the more pertinent points I have myself made.

*rolleys smilie *

I think that Capels only problem is that blaming victims is only criticised for certain groups at certain times.

Dearest Unique, I think that you have embraced surrealism lately and I don't undertand what you are saying. Seriously, I don't understand what do you mean with the comment above.

 

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra

Just to clear this up:

It is one thing to criticize a policy of a country and another thing to blame the victims of Holocaust for what happened to them as Capel Dodger has repeatedly done in this forum.

I don't blame the victims, I attach some blame to the Zionists who promoted the idea of a Jewish Cabal that secretly ran the world. They weren't the victims, the Jews of Europe were.

You will have to prove that Ariel Sharon has expressed his willingness to annihilate the Palestinians the way Hilter has declared his willingness to annihilate the Jews long before the Nazi Party took over Germany.

I really don't feel that I have to prove that. Ariel Sharon is hardly likely to say such things openly. By their friends shall you know them, and he happily includes people who have said such things in his cabinet and his entourage. When he has shown himself capable of killing thousands of civilians in pursuit of his goals why should anyone assume that some scale of atrocity would be beyond him? I know what I know of him and I form my opinions when there's sufficient evidence.

(from various threads):

You seem to ignore that Germany as the rest of Europe carried a long antisemitic tradition.

The reason why what happened to the Germans cannot happen to you and me is because we don't live in the specific society that was fiercly and continously antisemitic since the Middle Ages.

Why do you think that the citizens of some countries like Denmark or Greece didn't find the Nazi occupation of their country as a good opportunity to clear -up their differences with the Jews? Because antisemitism in those societies was marginal and not dominant as it was in Germany and in Central Europe.

This flies in the face of the Jewish participation in German society, in politics, business and academia. The Nazis never gained a majority of votes, and what gained most support was the usual nationalist "Make Germany Great Again" guff, not anti-semitism. German anti-semitism was strong only in the Catholic areas, so lets see this for what it was - Catholic anti-semitism, not German. This fierce and continuous anti-semitism somehow left a large and thriving, emancipated Jewish community in Germany before the Nazis. How is that?

Whilst he admits that he can't trace such a process in Israel because the legislation and above all the mentality of the population would't consent into that ...

This mentality - is it that of the Russians, American settlers, Tel Aviv Gay Pride, Likudniks, Sephardics, Orthodox, Kach? Israel is a manufactured state, built from wildly disparate peoples. It doesn't have a "mentality". It's a civil war waiting to happen, because any conceivable settlement reached will not satisfy some of the population. (When politicians summon up nationalism they have a tiger by the tail; any compromise with maximalist aims can be equated with treason by other nationalists. When a state religion is brought into it as well you're really in trouble.) As to tracing such a process, I thought that was evidenced in the newspaper article that started this thread, Corporal Milstein finding he was "sinking into this". OK, the particular anecdote may be contrived, but this sort of brutalisation has been pointed out by many Israelis.

Capel Dodger tends to turn himself into a case study. If somebody wants to see what prejudice does to a clever person he should study CD's posts about " that" matter.

I've been aware of Zionism and Israel all my life, and my opinions are arrived at after long study, thought and discussion, not from prejudice. Israel was presented to me as the "good guy" and the Arabs as "bad guys", which I accepted at first, but the more I found out about the reality (and the more aware I became of the lies that are routinely provided as "history") the more I questioned the whole project. This is not pre-judice, this is post-judice. Was your opinion derived in the same way?

A case study in what, anyway? Atheistic anti-nationalists? Whisky-drinking, pipe-smoking, fire-sitting-by, book-reading, essentially harmless pontificators?

BTW I want to ask you something regarding the Welsh candidate of the conservatives, do you want me to do it here or do you want me to revive this unique thread about Wales

Please, lets poke fun at Welsh Tories. Was that old thread on the Banter forum?

 

[Cleopatra]

Coup d'Etat!!



Capel Dodger

I decided to cut this discussion into two parts. In this thread we will continue your favorite sport of Israel bashing and to another one we will discuss about the nature and the historical evolution of antisemitism and the possible role of zionism to the Holocaust. We have to resolve this matter once and for good, I am fed up with you.
It's not the Welsh candidates of the Torries that I had in mind but Michael Howard. He is a Jew you know.

I have an indecent proposal for you. You will vote for Howard and with your vote you will help the Jews to dominate the world and I-in return- will make sure that when this happens your garden will be appointed as one of the few cat-free places of the world, because as you might have realized the cats ( since they are smarter)have allied with the Jews for the final battle...

 

[Mycroft]

... because as you might have realized the cats ( since they are smarter)have allied with the Jews for the final battle...

I suspected, but I didn't know for sure. If the cats speak well of their owners, can they ally with the Jews too? Is there an application to fill out?

 

[Cleopatra]

I suspected, but I didn't know for sure. If the cats speak well of their owners, can they ally with the Jews too? Is there an application to fill out?

LOL

Mycroft, there is no such a thing as a cat owner.We are talking about people who are owned by cats. So, since the cats have already made up their mind, people should obey...

 

[LuxFerum]

LOL

Mycroft, there is no such a thing as a cat owner.We are talking about people who are owned by cats. So, since the cats have already made up their mind, people should obey...

May cat disagree with that, specially when I take him to the veterinarian and he takes his temperature.

 

[Cleopatra]

Capel Dodger

I will reply here only to the points that have to do with Israel.

I really don't feel that I have to prove that. Ariel Sharon is hardly likely to say such things openly. By their friends shall you know them, and he happily includes people who have said such things in his cabinet and his entourage. When he has shown himself capable of killing thousands of civilians in pursuit of his goals why should anyone assume that some scale of atrocity would be beyond him? I know what I know of him and I form my opinions when there's sufficient evidence.

I am afraid that you do have. Think. What if somebody claims that Yasser Arafat is a serial killer and a Nazi like Hitler--judging by the number of terrorist attacks he has taken part in and he has personally ordered during the previous years? It sounds irrational, right? This is what you do when you claim that Sharon is a paranoid who wouldn't hesitate to order the mass murder of civilians.

As always, you play chess with the rules of backgammon. None forces you to play chess,my friend but if you decide to, you have to play by the rules.

This mentality - is it that of the Russians, American settlers, Tel Aviv Gay Pride, Likudniks, Sephardics, Orthodox, Kach? Israel is a manufactured state, built from wildly disparate peoples. It doesn't have a "mentality". It's a civil war waiting to happen, because any conceivable settlement reached will not satisfy some of the population. (When politicians summon up nationalism they have a tiger by the tail; any compromise with maximalist aims can be equated with treason by other nationalists. When a state religion is brought into it as well you're really in trouble.) As to tracing such a process, I thought that was evidenced in the newspaper article that started this thread, Corporal Milstein finding he was "sinking into this". OK, the particular anecdote may be contrived, but this sort of brutalisation has been pointed out by many Israelis.

I am sure that if this madness ever ends, we will have a civil war in Israel. I am positive about it BUT I have started to believe that there is a point in every nation's History that it has to clear up things and this is possible only through a civil war. The Greeks called this katharsis and as far as I know there is no katharsis without a bloodshed. I am not afraid of the civil war. In fact the outbreak of a civil war would mean the end of rotten apsects in the jewish mentality. I am sure you understand what I mean.

The example in the article was ridiculous. Everybody , even Unique, knows it.

I've been aware of Zionism and Israel all my life, and my opinions are arrived at after long study, thought and discussion, not from prejudice. Israel was presented to me as the "good guy" and the Arabs as "bad guys", which I accepted at first, but the more I found out about the reality (and the more aware I became of the lies that are routinely provided as "history") the more I questioned the whole project. This is not pre-judice, this is post-judice. Was your opinion derived in the same way?

I was born in Israel not because my parents --especially my dad--loved Israel so much and had decided to spend their lives there. Ironically I was born in Israel for the same reason my mother was born in Israel and not in Greece. My father was arrested by the Greek Junta in 1970 and he was sent in a labor camp for political prisoners. My mother was forced to leave the country 8 months pregnant because she was deprived of the Greek citizenship like heer mother who was practically forced to leave Greece and to migrate to the country she was mocking when she was a little girl in Salonika. I don't want the same to happen to me but there is a jewish proverb:" If something happens once ignore it, if it happens twice, wait for one more time for it to occur". I find the thought terrifying.

So, my knowledge about Israel comes by experience. I was born in the Arabic sector of Jerusalem, as a kid I was playing with Arabs this is why I feel more comfortable with them than with people from Western Europe. I served the Israeli Army and this is an experience I will never forget. It is not the fondest memory of my life but I am glad I did it. I quit my illusions about the human nature for good...

I don't know any Israeli who considers Palestinians as cockroaches,as Unique said, we live with them, we are not afraid of all of them, we don't see them as the "bad guys" BUT we don't feel the need to apologize for establishing that country and for protecting it.

If somebody is to apologize for this country these are the Europeans who stole our lives and I mean our lifestyle for ever.Nazism was a European phaenomenon. The Europeans sent us there, the Europeans before the war were screaming, asking for the Jews to go to Palestine now they scream and they ask for us to leave.

Well, no we won't.

 

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:

It's not the Welsh candidates of the Torries that I had in mind but Michael Howard. He is a Jew you know.

Have you still not got the point that I don't give a monkey's if he's Welsh or Jewish? He a damned Tory with the look of a cat-lover and that's all I need to know. I don't care about people's religion or nationality. People should be judged by their natures not some inherited label.

I am afraid that you do have. Think. What if somebody claims that Yasser Arafat is a serial killer and a Nazi like Hitler--judging by the number of terrorist attacks he has taken part in and he has personally ordered during the previous years? It sounds irrational, right? This is what you do when you claim that Sharon is a paranoid who wouldn't hesitate to order the mass murder of civilians.

"Psychopath", not "paranoid". What's your point? Sharon is murderous gangster. Just listen to him and look at his record. What Arafat is has no bearing on it.

I am sure that if this madness ever ends, we will have a civil war in Israel. I am positive about it BUT I have started to believe that there is a point in every nation's History that it has to clear up things and this is possible only through a civil war

I can only assume it's your religiosity that gives you the impression that life and history are not in out hands. You put more store in symbols such as nation and religion than you do in real people. The individual interest eclipsed by the national interest, and the cost in blood and pain? Well worth paying. The Soul of the Nation will be forged the stronger by the sacrifice. Bugger that.

The Greeks called this katharsis and as far as I know there is no katharsis without a bloodshed. I am not afraid of the civil war. In fact the outbreak of a civil war would mean the end of rotten apsects in the jewish mentality. I am sure you understand what I mean.

You are not afraid, so bugger those that are afraid and will still get caught up in it. Let's be frank here, these aspects of "jewish mentality" only exist in people, so when you speak of eliminating them you mean eliminating certain types of Jews.

The most likely result of the civil war will be domination by the settlers and the other followers of the New Judaism - the nationalist, bigotted, blood-and-iron version. Those Israelis that want a life for themselves and are in a position to do so will leave. The result will be a horror story.

I've decided to cut this discussion into two parts. In this thread we will continue your favorite sport of Israel bashing and to another one we will discuss about the nature and the historical evolution of antisemitism and the possible role of zionism to the Holocaust. We have to resolve this matter once and for good, I am fed up with you.

Knock yourself out.