Israeli Army has Doubts

[a_unique_person]

Excuse me, this article shows what?

The article cites two examples of Palestinian-Arab ?hardships? at the hands of Israelis. In one, a soldier abuses his power by searching a car even more carefully than the situation requires and them makes the Palestinian-Arab man wait around for another twenty minutes just because he can. In the other, a group of soldiers search the wrong house and scare its inhabitants.

Exactly what do these instances show?

The first is clearly an abuse of power, but it?s also a pretty mild one. It happens all the time in police departments all around the world, I doubt that you can find a police officer that?s been on the job for any length of time who can?t think of a time when he went a little too far ?just because he could? and felt guilty about it later. That?s normal human behavior.

In the second example, they searched the wrong house. Yeah, we wish we lived in a perfect world where that sort of thing didn?t happen, but we don?t and it does. Again, police all over the world sometimes stop the wrong people or search the wrong houses. It?s happened to me, it?s happened to people I know, I bet it happens in Australia.

These are not examples of brutality.

Not with a gun pointed at you. This is routine behaviour, not isolated instances. There are many examples of checkpoints being used as a routine means of humiliating people. When the police abuse their power, it is usually when they think that someone deserves to be punished for something they know the law would not punish. That is, we won't charge you, just humiliate you and let you go, don't do it again. Here, the people are humiliated for no reason at all. They are suspected of being nothing more than Palestinians.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

Not with a gun pointed at you. This is routine behaviour, not isolated instances. There are many examples of checkpoints being used as a routine means of humiliating people. When the police abuse their power, it is usually when they think that someone deserves to be punished for something they know the law would not punish. That is, we won't charge you, just humiliate you and let you go, don't do it again. Here, the people are humiliated for no reason at all. They are suspected of being nothing more than Palestinians.

Yes, actually, with several guns pointed at me. Just inches from my face.

I think it's interesting that only in Israel is a checkpoint considered "humiliating". Anywhere else, it's just a normal response to a threat of violence.

I also think it's interesting that only in the disputed territories of Israel is being stopped at a checkpoint considered reasonable motivation for becoming a suicide-terrorist. Anywhere else in the world, that would be considered insane, yet somehow when it’s Palestinian-Arabs in the disputed territories, we’re not surprised when they’re given a belt and then a street or hospital is named for them.

Anywhere else, someone seeking a solution for checkpoints would look at the underlying need for them, not at the checkpoints themselves. Oh no, don’t look at the terrorism the checkpoints are supposed to stop…!

 

[a_unique_person]

Many of the checkpoints sever no security purpose whatsoever. They are used just for this purpose, to humiliate, to let the Palestinians know who is boss. Many will be there, with the road closed, while everyone can just get to where they are going by taking the back road, walking around it and leaving their cars behind. What sort of security is serverd by doing this?

A checkpoint is a military act. It involves armed forces pointing guns at you. As in this example, a child is sitting next to his father. Do you think that he maybe hates the Israelis now?

The recent example of a suicide bomber was home when her brother, sitting outside drinking coffee with his cousin, was summarily executed by the IDF, who were after his cousin.

A bride on her way to her wedding.

Students cannot go to University. In what way is that a security risk?

Trying to get home after going shopping. Where is the security risk?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Many of the checkpoints sever no security purpose whatsoever. They are used just for this purpose, to humiliate, to let the Palestinians know who is boss. Many will be there, with the road closed, while everyone can just get to where they are going by taking the back road, walking around it and leaving their cars behind. What sort of security is serverd by doing this?

You’re an expert in military security? Can you cite a source that proves there is a policy of humiliation?

Originally posted by a_unique_person A checkpoint is a military act. It involves armed forces pointing guns at you. As in this example, a child is sitting next to his father. Do you think that he maybe hates the Israelis now?

Again, only in the disputed territories of Israel is being stopped at a check point seen as reasonable cause to become a suicide-terrorist. Thank you for illustrating my point. J

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The recent example of a suicide bomber was home when her brother, sitting outside drinking coffee with his cousin, was summarily executed by the IDF, who were after his cousin.

Yes, there is so much anecdotal evidence one way or another.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
A bride on her way to her wedding.

Who is smiling.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Students cannot go to University. In what way is that a security risk?

Many of the suicide-bombers come from Palestinian-Arabic universities.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Trying to get home after going shopping. Where is the security risk?

People from all walks of life become suicide-terrorists in the disputed territories.

 

[renata]

The recent example of a suicide bomber was home when her brother, sitting outside drinking coffee with his cousin, was summarily executed by the IDF, who were after his cousin.

What you forgot to mention is that both brother and cousin were both wanted members of Islamic Jihad, and that in retaliation she killed 19 people, including several children, wounded more than 50, and her victims were split evenly between Arabs and Israelis. She was a great recruit for Islamic Jihad- a young woman could pass easier through a checkpoint. Did she avenge the killing of her brother, who belonged to a radical terrorist organization, by campaigning for human rights? Did she do it by taking up arms and shooting an Israeli soldier? No, she murdered defenseless Jewish and Arab families. In what universe can this be justified? And, how did her family react? They praised her, calling it her "wedding day" and saying they got congratulations from everywhere. I guess some brides do make it through the checkpoints.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3165604.stm



As to some of your examples- there is no question that checkpoints can be humiliating and inconvenient. I have no doubt that some, maybe many soldiers abuse their powers. They are kids, they are scared, they are faced with hostile people every day. That must escalate after terror acts. I know crackdowns happen after bombings. I know there used to be more free travel, but terrorists usurped those opportunities.

Anecdotes can be piled on a mile thick. For every anecdote, every picture there is an equally or more horrific anecdote on the other side. Posting photos to prove your point does nothing. Here is an example.

A bride on her way to her wedding.

Bride killed on the eve of her wedding, along with her father, expert in treating victims of bomb attacks

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3099638.stm

Students cannot go to University. In what way is that a security risk?

Nine students murdered at a university

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by renata

What you forgot to mention is that both brother and cousin were both wanted members of Islamic Jihad, and that in retaliation she killed 19 people, including several children, wounded more than 50, and her victims were split evenly between Arabs and Israelis. She was a great recruit for Islamic Jihad- a young woman could pass easier through a checkpoint. Did she avenge the killing of her brother, who belonged to a radical terrorist organization, by campaigning for human rights? Did she do it by taking up arms and shooting an Israeli soldier? No, she murdered defenseless Jewish and Arab families. In what universe can this be justified? And, how did her family react? They praised her, calling it her "wedding day" and saying they got congratulations from everywhere. I guess some brides do make it through the checkpoints.

Thank you, Renata. I didn't realize which Palestinian-Arabs he was refering too.

For AUP I will point out again that your pictures show:

1) A bride who is smiling. She is stepping between two cement dividers, but there is no indication if this is at a checkpoint or in a parking lot somewhere. If this is indeed her wedding and she is being inconvinienced at a checkpoint, that is regretable, but people who are not above smuggling explosives and weapons in ambulances or disguising explosives as a baby are not above using a wedding for the same purposes.

2 & 3) People standing in line next to some soldiers, and people standing around a tank. Nowhere in these pictures in anyone being abused or humiliated. If they are being delayed at a check point, that is regretable, but such things will end when the violence ends.

 

[a_unique_person]

What you forgot to mention is that both brother and cousin were both wanted members of Islamic Jihad, and that in retaliation she killed 19 people, including several children, wounded more than 50, and her victims were split evenly between Arabs and Israelis. She was a great recruit for Islamic Jihad- a young woman could pass easier through a checkpoint. Did she avenge the killing of her brother, who belonged to a radical terrorist organization, by campaigning for human rights? Did she do it by taking up arms and shooting an Israeli soldier? No, she murdered defenseless Jewish and Arab families. In what universe can this be justified? And, how did her family react? They praised her, calling it her "wedding day" and saying they got congratulations from everywhere. I guess some brides do make it through the checkpoints.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3165604.stm

I did not forget to mention it. I was pointing out the process of creating a terrorist. How do we know they were terrorists? The IDF told us? Must be true then. Even if they were, why were they summarily shot? If Israel wants to play by legal rules, let it, if it wants to play a dirtier game, don't be surprised if both sides do.

As to some of your examples- there is no question that checkpoints can be humiliating and inconvenient. I have no doubt that some, maybe many soldiers abuse their powers. They are kids, they are scared, they are faced with hostile people every day. That must escalate after terror acts. I know crackdowns happen after bombings. I know there used to be more free travel, but terrorists usurped those opportunities.

Anecdotes can be piled on a mile thick. For every anecdote, every picture there is an equally or more horrific anecdote on the other side. Posting photos to prove your point does nothing. Here is an example.

I don't supply just anecdotes. I have members of the IDF, soldiers, generals and pilots, backing me up.

Bride killed on the eve of her wedding, along with her father, expert in treating victims of bomb attacks

Nine students murdered at a university

This was not my point. The routine humiliation of innocent people is akin to murder. It makes a person feel like they wish they were dead. This is being done on a much larger population on a much more sustained basis. About 30 years, in fact. Many people have grown up knowing only life under military occupation.

 

[demon]

"As to some of your examples- there is no question that checkpoints can be humiliating and inconvenient."

Fvcking incredible.

 

[a_unique_person]

You?re an expert in military security? Can you cite a source that proves there is a policy of humiliation?



Again, only in the disputed territories of Israel is being stopped at a check point seen as reasonable cause to become a suicide-terrorist. Thank you for illustrating my point. J



Yes, there is so much anecdotal evidence one way or another.



Who is smiling.



Many of the suicide-bombers come from Palestinian-Arabic universities.



People from all walks of life become suicide-terrorists in the disputed territories.

Most of the checkpoints have nothing to do with restricting access between Israel/Palestine, but between Palestinian towns.

The people going home had just been to the market. No suicide bombers heading to Israel.

http://www.palestinercs.org/pressreleases/PR100903WBRR.htm

When you need a road map just to get home

Adapted from Al-Quds, 31-7-2003



For years the Palestinians have been subjected to brutal measures of collective punishment under the pretext of Israeli security. One of the measures most disruptive to their everyday lives is undoubtedly the policy of closures. Roads are closed hindering or preventing movement between towns and villages in the West Bank and between the West Bank and Gaza. Palestine has become a patchwork of closed, disjointed cantons and people are plagued with unending worries about how to get to work, to school, to the doctor, to visit family or go to prayer.

The events of the last few months, including the appointment of a prime minister, US Secretary of State Colin Powell's meeting with high-ranking Palestinian officials in Jericho and talk of the Road Map, rekindled the fire of hope in the hearts of the Palestinian people who anticipated an easing of oppressive conditions imposed by the occupying army. Tragically, the difference between promising speeches and the situation on the ground today could not be starker. This is certainly evidenced by the behaviour of Israeli soldiers at the checkpoints that leaves citizens feels humiliated, helpless and hopeless.

As civilian population continues to face the hardships of occupation this often includes journalists like Amina Awda from the Palestinian Al-Quds newspaper. She recently wrote about her last trip from Ramallah to her home in Bethlehem, a mere 50 km away.



First stop - Qalandia

The Qalandia checkpoint, next to the refugee camp of the same name blocks the road between Ramallah, the administrative capital of Palestine, and the south of the West Bank. Amina and her travelling companions asked the taxi driver who took them there what the situation was like. His answer was: 'Very difficult, as usual. The choice is up to you'. The journalist decided to cross anyway.

At the checkpoint there were hundreds if not thousands of people unprotected standing under the blazing sun. Amina took her place in the queue and prepared to accept whatever arbitrary decision the soldiers made. She could hear them barking orders and, as she got closer the could see them checking documents and belongings without any display of kindness or respect. When it was finally her turn, she was told: 'You are not getting through today. Go complain to Arafat'.




Looking for an alternative road map

The journalist looked for another route to the other side of the checkpoint. To the east of Qalandia lies a dirt paths. They are long and arduous without any guarantee of success, but Palestinians who have not been able to get through 'officially' regularly resort to them. Unfortunately, after Amina and her party had walked for several kilometres they heard that there were Israeli patrols ahead; the soldiers had detained a number of men, women and children, who were being held at gunpoint. The wisest thing to do was to go back?

Everybody looked depressed and exhausted not knowing how long this nightmare would continue. Amina made a new attempt: the road that leads to Rafat, southwest of Jerusalem. The only problem was that the so-called 'security wall' now blocks the road, and there is only a dirt track so full potholes that many attempting to cross via this route end up with neck or back injuries and pregnant women are at risk of aborting. In addition, transport on these secondary and very hazardous roads is about twice as expensive as normal fare. Once again, the trip was unsuccessful heeding a new warning of difficulties ahead the driver decided not to venture any further.

 

[Cleopatra]

A request:
Is it possible to link the photos instead of posting them? I have problems with my connection today and it took me half an hour to load the page.

Of course this is just a request to make things easier it has nothing to do with the content of the photos which is ok.

Thank you.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I did not forget to mention it. I was pointing out the process of creating a terrorist.

When detailing the process of creating a terrorist, you left out a few points:

1) Anti-Semitism taught in Palestinian-Arab schools.

2) Anti-Semitism taught in Palestinian-Arab Mosques.

3) Public glorification of “martyrs” by Palestinian-Arab political and religious leaders.

4) The naming of public streets, hospitals and other institutions after suicide-bombers.

5) The prominent display of pictures of suicide-bombers in shops, schools, mosques and homes. The printing of suicide-bomber trading cards. Showing tapes made by suicide-bombers on Palestinian-Arab TV. Television commercials that tell children to “drop your toys and pick up rocks”

6) Palestinian-Arab summer camps that teach children to use weapons and practice kidnapping techniques.

7) Printing maps that label all of Israel and the disputed territories as “Palestine”.

8) Arafat taking Palestinian-Arab sales tax money and passing it to terrorist organizations.

9) Syria and Iran passing funds to Hamas, who’s stated goal is to destroy Israel.

10) Egypt turning a blind eye to weapons smuggling through tunnels at the Gaza border.

11) The paying of cash awards and pension to the families of suicide-bombers.

12) Families celebrating the deaths of their own children if they die as a suicide-bomber.

13) Public mass celebrations of vicious terrorist attacks, not just against Israel but the 9/11 attacks as well.

14) Schools letting children out so they can participate in demonstrations.

15) UNRWA and it’s policies of perpetuating Palestinian-Arab misery and turning a blind eye to terrorist activity.

16) http://www.geocities.com/arabracismplusjihad/kidblood.art


Next to these (and more) a mere delay at a check-point is nothing.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
How do we know they were terrorists? The IDF told us? Must be true then. Even if they were, why were they summarily shot? If Israel wants to play by legal rules, let it, if it wants to play a dirtier game, don't be surprised if both sides do.

It’s a sad fact of life that enemy combatants in a war zone don’t get due process. However, if you feel they should, you and I can agree on that point. Instead of messing around with check points and other defensive measures, Israel should just conquer the disputed territories, erase all signs of Palestinian-Arab government and social institutions, and engage in a massive reeducation program. Then in a few short generations, the Palestinian-Arabs will be ready for peace.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I don't supply just anecdotes. I have members of the IDF, soldiers, generals and pilots, backing me up.

What about the other 99.7% of the IDF?

Originally posted by a_unique_person
This was not my point. The routine humiliation of innocent people is akin to murder.

Being stopped at a check point is not akin to murder. Being stopped at a checkpoint is akin to having to go through a security check at an airport, or a sobriety check at a police roadblock. It’s a reasonable precaution that rational people put up with when they know there is a danger of violence.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
It makes a person feel like they wish they were dead. This is being done on a much larger population on a much more sustained basis. About 30 years, in fact. Many people have grown up knowing only life under military occupation.

Many people have grown up with a constant threat of terrorism. If the Palestinian-Arabs dislike the checkpoints so much, they should renounce the intifada, and protest their leaders who choose these hardships for them.

 

[renata]

Mycroft, I wish you would not post inflammatory pictures. I know some try to make their point across by posting pictures of dead bodies and anecdotes, I don't think there is the need for images from either side. At least the link would be sufficient to make your point. I posted the HRW report showing PA was releasing prisoners, subsidizing them, lying about their location, and terrorist organizations credited that with rise in terrorism. I posted the excerpts showing terrorist organizations actively recruited and used children in attacks against Israel. Someone posted information from a recent 60 minutes investigation showing Arafat is worth anywhere from 300 million to a billion dollars, as I recall- mostly money stashed away, hidden, stolen, while his people are in poverty.

I did not forget to mention it

Hmmm,.....this is what you said

The recent example of a suicide bomber was home when her brother, sitting outside drinking coffee with his cousin, was summarily executed by the IDF, who were after his cousin.

Ok...you did not "forget". Would you prefer...chose not to? Did not find that information relevant? Fact is, you did not mention it, did you?

How do we know they were terrorists?

I did not say they were terrorists. Here is what I said

both brother and cousin were both wanted members of Islamic Jihad....her brother, who belonged to a radical terrorist organization,

I also helpfully provided a BBC link, to tell you exactly how we knew they were members of Islamic Jihad.

Islamic Jihad says the 29-year-old Jenin trainee lawyer was driven to become a mass murderer by the need for revenge.

Jaradat's younger brother Fadi, a 25-year-old Islamic Jihad militant, and their similarly militant older cousin, 34-year-old Salah - were killed by Israeli forces in a raid on Jenin in June.

The BBC article does not mention anything about them being "summarily executed" while "drinking coffee"- you must have gotten it from another source. I do not know who BBC's source is, but from the way the article is structured, it sounds like it is Islamic Jihad itself. And, in case you have not been following the news, Islamic Jihad is indeed a radical terrorist organization, with a goal of attacking Israel. So it looks like my comments, supported by BBC sources (not known to have a huge pro Israel bias) is correct.

Even if they were, why were they summarily shot?

I don't know. First of all, I have not seen your sources for that yet. If they are anything like that claim of- Israel targets peace activists, which upon examination by people who knew things about ammo, tactics, cinder block walls and other things turned out to be utter ridiculousness, there is nothing to talk about.

If Israel wants to play by legal rules, let it, if it wants to play a dirtier game, don't be surprised if both sides do.

Before we figure out who is violating legal rules, don't forget- when Israel had that magic block wall X ray vision, they also retrieved armed militant hiding in a hospital- against legal rules. Oh, and did you know, that it is against legal rules for militants to be in Jenin, which is technically UN refugee camp, I believe. And, PA should have cracked down on them long ago...Oh, yes, those pesky legalities....

But do tell- are you actually justifying what this woman did?

The routine humiliation of innocent people is akin to murder. It makes a person feel like they wish they were dead. This is being done on a much larger population on a much more sustained basis.

Humiliation same as murder? Interesting viewpoint you have there. Humiliation is indeed devastating, I agree. But the terror impacts not only the people that are dead, you know. It impacts the larger population, on a much more sustained basis, you seem to forget that. Instead of having majority of Palestinians support their thieving government and suicide bombings, have them rise up, support peace. All intifada brought them is more misery. They thought resistance would get more concessions, and they made fools of Barak and every peace proponent in Israel. Now they must earn back the trust of hardened public, and it will be much harder this time. It may be true that the peace offer was not perfect. It may be true it was not fair. But while negotiations were going on, even at the hardest time- it was much better than this. Arafat pushed Abbas aside, kept control, directed the violence, stole the money, and in the process gave the hardliners like Sharon who never trusted him a permanent and best excuse to never want to negotiate with him. Until there is a true peace movement in PA, or Arafat gets pushed aside by a strong voice, willing to reign in militants there will be no peace.

 

[renata]

Hey, I found a link about how they were summarily executed while peacefully sipping coffee on the terrace! And the source has awful bias towards Israel, too.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-06/13/article01.shtml

Two Palestinians were killed in exchanges of fire with Israeli troops in the northern West Bank city of Jenin Thursday night, and an Israeli intelligence officer was shot dead in a nearby area, as Israeli tanks entered Gaza and cut the territory into two halves.

Palestinian security sources identified the two as Saleh Jeradate, 34, a local leader of the armed wing of Islamic Jihad, the Al-Quds Brigades, and Fahdi Jeradate, 25. It was not immediately clear if they were related, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).

They said three others, including a seven-year-old girl, were injured in the fighting, which they described as "fierce".

 

[Cleopatra]

As I have said before. If you want a debate on whether other countries should improve their human rights records, such as many Muslim countries, you won't get it here.

Irrelevant.

Please don't try to derail the discussion. I didn't say that they are worse cases than Israel so, Israel is excused for what is doing but I said that although Israel is to blame equally with other countries and although Israel doesn't committ attrocities to the extend other countries do, some people like you. Mr. Manifesto and others are connecting only the Israelis to the Nazis.

Why is that, can you explain it?

It is not a fence, it is a wall, and it is being used to steal more land.

Does the fence make Israel a Nazi state? I want a yes or no answer to that.

I saw an interview with Israelis at a coffee shop after a suicide bombing. The people clearly were suffering strees. But they also acknowledged that both sides are suffering, that both sides are also tenacious, and will not give in.

Palestinians never know, from day to day, when they will be shot at, arrested, humiliated, have their land taken, their home destroyed. There is no legal process. It is just summary action. And this is the reality they face on a daily basis.

Israeli and Palestinian civilians face this stress equally and on a daily basis. But Israelis are in a worse position because the enemy doesn't respect schools, hospitals and temples.

You are wrong about the legal process of arrests in the occupied territories.

I have explained to you at least two times by now which is the legal process and the zone division system in the OT but of course you continue your claims. The IDF has a legal process, of course it's far from perfect but it exists.

Israelis have to live with the blinded hatred. According to your theory I must blame it on the collective trauma Palestinians suffer or those theories concern Jews only?

The point I was making was that the humiliation is a reasoned part of the checkpoint process, and that this author saw humiliation as a huge crime against humanity. The Palestinians are not killed, for the most part, but they are kept in daily fear of their lives, as they know they can be shot at for just going to work their farms, or made to feel worthless and less than human for just travelling.

When the police stops you while driving for a control, this can be easily turned into a very humiliating experience.This is hardly a crime against humanity.

Jews were humiliated not only because they were shaved, tattoed, left to starve, tortured in medical experiments in the camps etc etc etc but because they experienced a very humiliating death. The final result is that counts.

And unlike other people who lost their lives in the Holocaust, unlike the gypsies, homosexuals , political prisoners etc etc Jews are the only ones who continue to suffer that humiliation after their death.

It's seems that their misfortune has no end. Sophocles has written a beautiful verse in "Oedipus Rex" about that but I hate to use high poetry into the mud of racial hatred.

When you make someone feel like they are not human, they may not act with humanity.

Are you talking about the Jews or the Arabs now?

The IDF does not seem to have the same standards.

The fact that you are not interested in searching the issue doesn't mean that IDF doesn't have such standards. Of course if your prejudice let you think clearly you would never say that.

If IDF didn't have such procedures it would be doomed. You are either terribly prejudiced or you don't know at all how an Army functions. Ask the military officers of the forum and they will verify that one of the founding dogmas of an Army is to punish severely those who resort to unnecessary violence. If you don't believe me, goggle a bit and you will find everything you need to know. I am not suggesting that everything functions perfectly!!! But things are not the way you believe.

IDF has regulations and since in Israel there are no military Academies our Army is an Army of the People of Israel. The rules are very severe.

Collective trauma can be just one reason for brutality. In the US, the fear and paranoia appear to be a cultural thing, ref" Bowling for Columbine.

I know very well that the rise of Nazism wasn't a result of the collective general trauma. Also, I suggest we avoid referencies to cultural standards. Slipery slopes...

As I noted, there are many in the IDF who do not like what the IDF is doing, and what being in the IDF does to them. At least there is free speech in Israel that allows such thoughts to be aired, as distinct from Nazi Germany, where such actions would have brought instant death.

Unique. You must have observed by now that I am not hiding my thoughts. Your remark above is very dirty and from this moment I stop giving you the benefit of the doubt. I consider that you post those things on purpose especially when you address to me since you know my ideas. I have had enough.

 

[a_unique_person]

Irrelevant.

Please don't try to derail the discussion. I didn't say that they are worse cases than Israel so, Israel is excused for what is doing but I said that although Israel is to blame equally with other countries and although Israel doesn't committ attrocities to the extend other countries do, some people like you. Mr. Manifesto and others are connecting only the Israelis to the Nazis.

Why is that, can you explain it?



Does the fence make Israel a Nazi state? I want a yes or no answer to that.

I think I was ticked off for comparing Nazis to the US the other day. I think there is a little bit of Nazi in all of us. It is hardly something that the Isrealis have a monopoly on.

Israeli and Palestinian civilians face this stress equally and on a daily basis. But Israelis are in a worse position because the enemy doesn't respect schools, hospitals and temples.

One of the pictures at check points was of a Palestinian woman, in labour, trying to get to hospital, but having difficulty negotiating the route due to the presence of check points, so that she had to scale the steep side of a hill.

You are wrong about the legal process of arrests in the occupied territories.

I have explained to you at least two times by now which is the legal process and the zone division system in the OT but of course you continue your claims. The IDF has a legal process, of course it's far from perfect but it exists.

I find it hard to believe it is being observed. People can be attacked for no provocation. Eg, a peaceful protest march, sitting doing embroidery, children playing, harvesting crops. Mr Google will show such instances very quickly.

Israelis have to live with the blinded hatred. According to your theory I must blame it on the collective trauma Palestinians suffer or those theories concern Jews only?

And Likud has stated it will not accept a Palestinian state. I think that 30 years of military occupation indicates a certain amount of blind hatred. Military occupation is an act of war, war is an act of hatred.

When the police stops you while driving for a control, this can be easily turned into a very humiliating experience.This is hardly a crime against humanity.

Jews were humiliated not only because they were shaved, tattoed, left to starve, tortured in medical experiments in the camps etc etc etc but because they experienced a very humiliating death. The final result is that counts.

In the book, the author, although a committed Nazi, found he was troubled by the fact that Jews had to slink onto the tramcar, and off again, so as not to arouse any attention, lest it result in some attack on them. He felt that this was no way to live, that it was surely very close to having no life at all, to being dead. If you look at the photos of the checkpoints, you see pictures of Palestinians having to adopt this attitude too, nothing can attract attention, existence has to be expressed in the most minimal way.

And unlike other people who lost their lives in the Holocaust, unlike the gypsies, homosexuals , political prisoners etc etc Jews are the only ones who continue to suffer that humiliation after their death.

It's seems that their misfortune has no end. Sophocles has written a beautiful verse in "Oedipus Rex" about that but I hate to use high poetry into the mud of racial hatred.

That is a shame. I love hearing the old wisdom. It reminds me how much we have learned and lost. The Romans, Greeks, and others, have much to teach us still. Since they did not have access to all the modern wonders that we do, they learned to express powerful ideas with an economy of words.

Are you talking about the Jews or the Arabs now?

The fact that you are not interested in searching the issue doesn't mean that IDF doesn't have such standards. Of course if your prejudice let you think clearly you would never say that.

If IDF didn't have such procedures it would be doomed. You are either terribly prejudiced or you don't know at all how an Army functions. Ask the military officers of the forum and they will verify that one of the founding dogmas of an Army is to punish severely those who resort to unnecessary violence. If you don't believe me, goggle a bit and you will find everything you need to know. I am not suggesting that everything functions perfectly!!! But things are not the way you believe.

IDF has regulations and since in Israel there are no military Academies our Army is an Army of the People of Israel. The rules are very severe.

The IDF may have all these rules. Yet it is also very simple to ask Mr Google for examples of gratuitous violence and humiliation. Overt acts, such as the attacks against civilians with flechettes, grenades, machine guns, are also easy to find.

I know very well that the rise of Nazism wasn't a result of the collective general trauma. Also, I suggest we avoid referencies to cultural standards. Slipery slopes...

It was very much a result of trauma. The aftermath of WWI gave a race that was well educated and cultured reason to follow a madman into hell.

Unique. You must have observed by now that I am not hiding my thoughts. Your remark above is very dirty and from this moment I stop giving you the benefit of the doubt. I consider that you post those things on purpose especially when you address to me since you know my ideas. I have had enough.

I am afraid I do not understand. I am grateful to hear that there are many in the IDF who do not approve of what they are ordered to do. It gives me hope that there will be a reasonable and rational result from what is a crazy situation. You read too much into what I write. Although I enjoy word games, I am also a computer programmer. It is to be taken literally and logically, even if I do try to play some simple games with the words themselves.

 

[Cleopatra]

I think I was ticked off for comparing Nazis to the US the other day. I think there is a little bit of Nazi in all of us. It is hardly something that the Isrealis have a monopoly on.

I don't know about you but I don't have a serial killer in me. Nazis weren't common criminals. What they did was unique in History and it didn't have any precedent.You cannot use Nazis as an example. You remind me of those people of PETA who used the famous photo from the concentration camp and in the place of the skeletal jewish prisoners they put chicken.

Those people died in that camp once and PETA killed them once more.

One of the pictures at check points was of a Palestinian woman, in labour, trying to get to hospital, but having difficulty negotiating the route due to the presence of check points, so that she had to scale the steep side of a hill.

One? Only one? I bet more than one have faced this situation. Propably the kids at the check points who serve their country took their belly for a bomb.

You know the last time I was in Jerusalem I observed that I tended to look people( I mean Arab people) trying to figure out if they carry a bomb. I remember that I was looking pregnant women quite suspiciously.

It's unbelievable what terror can do to people.

I find it hard to believe it is being observed.

You reply to something irrelevant. Again. In your previous message you said :

It begs the question, would the Australian army perform this role? In East Timor, there was a recent military investigation because some soldiers were accused of violating the dead body of a terrorist. The IDF does not seem to have the same standards.

And I replied to you that IDF has the same and maybe more severe standards. Now you say that IDF might have such standards but they are not observed.

So do you retract your previous comment about IDF?

And Likud has stated it will not accept a Palestinian state. I think that 30 years of military occupation indicates a certain amount of blind hatred. Military occupation is an act of war, war is an act of hatred.

PLO until yesterday was declaring that they do not want Peace but Israel's destruction.So? Out of the 30 years of occupation only during the last 8-10 years PLO is talking about Peace.

In the book, the author, although a committed Nazi, found he was troubled by the fact that Jews had to slink onto the tramcar, and off again, so as not to arouse any attention, lest it result in some attack on them. He felt that this was no way to live, that it was surely very close to having no life at all, to being dead. If you look at the photos of the checkpoints, you see pictures of Palestinians having to adopt this attitude too, nothing can attract attention, existence has to be expressed in the most minimal way.

You seem to overlook that Jews in Nazi Germany weren't attempting to "enter" cities in order to explode themselves and kill numerous unarmed civilians. Unfortuantely Arab terrorist use even the abulances of Red Cross in order to kill people.

Unless you are implying that Nazis were reacting to a real danger the Jews posed to their society as Israelis react to the blind Arab terrorism.

Were Jews a potential danger to the German society?

That is a shame. I love hearing the old wisdom. It reminds me how much we have learned and lost. The Romans, Greeks, and others, have much to teach us still. Since they did not have access to all the modern wonders that we do, they learned to express powerful ideas with an economy of words.

Yes indeed. But still the old wisdom loses its strength in inappropriate discussions. The Greeks had no idea of the notion of the racial hatred.

The IDF may have all these rules.

So, I guess that you actually retract your previous argument.

Yet it is also very simple to ask Mr Google for examples of gratuitous violence and humiliation. Overt acts, such as the attacks against civilians with flechettes, grenades, machine guns, are also easy to find.

But the same is everywhere unfortunately. We were talking about what makes you think that Israel is a Nazi state. You haven't proven so far that there are attrocities that occur exclusively in Israel.

It was very much a result of trauma. The aftermath of WWI gave a race that was well educated and cultured reason to follow a madman into hell.

This is an oversimplification and unfortunately is rather prevailing as an idea regarding what caused Nazism whereas is only one of the reasons. The rise of Nazism has to do mostly with the structures of the German Society. I can expand of that if you are interested.

I You read too much into what I write.

What you write is all I have from you. I don't know the computer programmer and I don't know the person that hides behind your nick-name. I do have to read into what you write.

Are we fooling around here?


BTW Thanks for replacing the photos with links. I appreciate it

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The IDF may have all these rules. Yet it is also very simple to ask Mr Google for examples of gratuitous violence and humiliation. Overt acts, such as the attacks against civilians with flechettes, grenades, machine guns, are also easy to find.

Yes, whenever any army is involved in action, there will be reports of excesses and abuses. Sometimes these reports will be exaggerations, reporting from a biased source. Sometimes it will be disinformation or propaganda put out by the opposing side or its allies, and sometimes they will be real, the result of circumstances that arise from the chaos of war. War is, after all, brutal by definition.

In this, Israel has several disadvantages: First, the conflict has lasted a very long time. This, along with Israel’s open society, insures that there will be more to report. Second, Israel gets an unbelievable amount of media attention, far out of proportion to her importance in world events. Third, Israel has a cadre of critics who are bent on exaggerating every fault and reporting every event in the worst possible way.

The truth is that even if you disagree with the policies that put Israeli troops into action, their behavior while in action is as good as or better than any other NATO force.

I think it’s interesting to contrast your reaction to allegations of misconduct of Israeli forces to your reaction to similar allegations of misconduct of Australian forces. When the forces are Australian, you’re willing to give them the benefit of the doubt by questioning if the charges are true and adding further commentary of the character of their opponents. When the charges are against Israeli forces, you make a comparison to Nazism.

 

[a_unique_person]

Now four former directors of Shin Beit agree with me. I must have something right.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/21/1069027328507.html

Four former Israeli security chiefs have created a stir, accusing the Sharon Government of "immoral" conduct.

Israel's Government is behaving "disgracefully" in the occupied territories, with an "immoral" and "vindictive" policy of settlement and fence-building that "creates hatred... expropriates land, and annexes hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to the state of Israel".

These allegations are sending shock waves through the Israeli political and security establishments - not because of what was said but because of who said it.

In an unprecedented joint interview with the Hebrew daily Yedioth Ahronot last week, four retired directors of Israel's Shin Bet internal security agency came together to openly criticise the present Government's policy - or as they see it, lack of policy - for ending the Arab-Israeli conflict.

The four former directors - Avraham Shalom, Yaakov Peri, Carmi Gillon and Ami Ayalon - warned that if the present situation was left unchecked, the result could ultimately be the end of Israel as a democratic, Jewish state.

 

[Mycroft]

Now four former directors of Shin Beit agree with me. I must have something right.

Excuse me, how do they agree with you?

You were comparing the “humiliation” of Palestinian-Arabs at checkpoints to the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust while (unfairly) smearing the IDF for not following rules.

This article doesn’t support any of that. What this article shows is former Shin-Bet security chiefs criticizing the Sharon government for not having a policy to resolve the conflict. While both ideas are critical, they are critical in very different ways.

In your mind, is criticism of Israel the only important factor? Or are you backing away from previous assertions and starting a new topic?

 

[a_unique_person]

Excuse me, how do they agree with you?

You were comparing the “humiliation” of Palestinian-Arabs at checkpoints to the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust while (unfairly) smearing the IDF for not following rules.

This article doesn’t support any of that. What this article shows is former Shin-Bet security chiefs criticizing the Sharon government for not having a policy to resolve the conflict. While both ideas are critical, they are critical in very different ways.

In your mind, is criticism of Israel the only important factor? Or are you backing away from previous assertions and starting a new topic?

Sorry, they agree with the basic premise of the thread, that there are important Israeli figures and representatives who doubt the validity of Sharon's strategy. They also feel that the treatment of Palestinians is not good.

My only point about the Nazis was that their humiliation of Jews was seen by the author of a book to be a terrible thing that was as bad as killing someone, that is, taking away their life in principal, if not in fact. There are many more features of the Nazi regime that do not apply to Israel.