Israeli Army has Doubts

[a_unique_person]

And what is your point this time?

Is this your strategy? To make statements that vaguely seem like they might have something to do with the topic and let us guess how? Do you think that better minds might draw conclusions that you're not capable of making on your own?

If you think that Australian conscientous objectors from the Vietnam era have something to do with this argument, then please tell us how. Are you saying they're the same? Are you saying they're different? Are you saying anything at all?

The same point I have been making all along. There sometimes comes a point in a soldiers or potential soldiers time when he has to ask himself if what he is being asked to do is immoral. There are plenty of IDF members, some of them quite senior and elite, who are doing exactly this. Now, I realise they are only Jews, so I apparently hate them either way, but I am impressed with their moral courage.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
The same point I have been making all along. There sometimes comes a point in a soldiers or potential soldiers time when he has to ask himself if what he is being asked to do is immoral. There are plenty of IDF members, some of them quite senior and elite, who are doing exactly this. Now, I realise they are only Jews, so I apparently hate them either way, but I am impressed with their moral courage.

Except that talking about Australian conscientious objectors doesn't demonstrate any of that. All it demonstrates is that in Australia at the time of the Vietnam War, there were people who didn't want to fight.

Citizenship carries responsibilities. In return for the protection of the state, one also has obligations to the state, and sometimes that may include military service when needed.

If one wishes to protest the actions of the state, there are methods that are acceptable and those that are not. Speaking out, campaigning or demonstrating against the policy you don’t like are among the acceptable actions, failing to live up to ones obligations to the state are not.

There are some people who feel, for whatever reason, that it’s wrong to kill under any circumstances, even war. It’s for these people that the rules on conscientious objectors were made, not for people who are already in the military who suddenly decide they don’t want to follow orders anymore.

And doesn’t this make you a hypocrite for bashing Orthodox Jews who don’t serve in the IDF?

 

[Troll]

Except that talking about Australian conscientious objectors doesn't demonstrate any of that. All it demonstrates is that in Australia at the time of the Vietnam War, there were people who didn't want to fight.

Citizenship carries responsibilities. In return for the protection of the state, one also has obligations to the state, and sometimes that may include military service when needed.

If one wishes to protest the actions of the state, there are methods that are acceptable and those that are not. Speaking out, campaigning or demonstrating against the policy you don’t like are among the acceptable actions, failing to live up to ones obligations to the state are not.

There are some people who feel, for whatever reason, that it’s wrong to kill under any circumstances, even war. It’s for these people that the rules on conscientious objectors were made, not for people who are already in the military who suddenly decide they don’t want to follow orders anymore.

And doesn’t this make you a hypocrite for bashing Orthodox Jews who don’t serve in the IDF?

Very well said. First Gulf War we had people "suddenly" become conscientious objectors. I found it odd that they were surprised by possibly being sent to war when they signed the same contract I did which said I understood I may have to.

 

[a_unique_person]

Except that talking about Australian conscientious objectors doesn't demonstrate any of that. All it demonstrates is that in Australia at the time of the Vietnam War, there were people who didn't want to fight.

Citizenship carries responsibilities. In return for the protection of the state, one also has obligations to the state, and sometimes that may include military service when needed.

If one wishes to protest the actions of the state, there are methods that are acceptable and those that are not. Speaking out, campaigning or demonstrating against the policy you don’t like are among the acceptable actions, failing to live up to ones obligations to the state are not.

There are some people who feel, for whatever reason, that it’s wrong to kill under any circumstances, even war. It’s for these people that the rules on conscientious objectors were made, not for people who are already in the military who suddenly decide they don’t want to follow orders anymore.

And doesn’t this make you a hypocrite for bashing Orthodox Jews who don’t serve in the IDF?

One obligations to the state do not include acting immorally.

They are not serving because they don't believe in the war, they are the hypocrites, they don't serve because they seem to think they are too 'holy'. That is, they are quite happy to cause a war and want people to put their lives on the line for them, but not do so themselves.

 

[Troll]

One obligations to the state do not include acting immorally.

They are not serving because they don't believe in the war, they are the hypocrites, they don't serve because they seem to think they are too 'holy'. That is, they are quite happy to cause a war and want people to put their lives on the line for them, but not do so themselves.

Do you read what you write?

You just said some obscure and hard to understand thing, that Orthodox Jews "don't serve because they seem to think they are too holy", yet they are "quite happy to cause a war and want people to put their lives on the line for them, but not do so themselves".

And you got the balls to call someone a racist or a bigot?

Earlier, in this thread or the other one where you're losing credibility points at a rapid rate, you stated something about people having a moral obligation and that not serving their country if they didn't feel they should was living up to that. But you failed to recognize the difference between one's moral obligations out of their own beliefs and the moral obligations one has to society.

If you decide to serve your country you are morally obligated to obey all lawful orders. Note the word "lawful". Now if you really don't understand that then I suggest you check out the various countries versions of what the US calls the UCMJ

 

[a_unique_person]

Do you read what you write?

You just said some obscure and hard to understand thing, that Orthodox Jews "don't serve because they seem to think they are too holy", yet they are "quite happy to cause a war and want people to put their lives on the line for them, but not do so themselves".

And you got the balls to call someone a racist or a bigot?

That's because that is what many of them do. It's a fact. Just like there are Mullahs who want war, or Republicans.

Earlier, in this thread or the other one where you're losing credibility points at a rapid rate, you stated something about people having a moral obligation and that not serving their country if they didn't feel they should was living up to that. But you failed to recognize the difference between one's moral obligations out of their own beliefs and the moral obligations one has to society.

If you decide to serve your country you are morally obligated to obey all lawful orders. Note the word "lawful". Now if you really don't understand that then I suggest you check out the various countries versions of what the US calls the UCMJ

I have told this story before, but I will tell it again. My family had some friends some years ago. They were also devout Catholics, and their oldest son went off to serve in Vietnam, like a good anti-communist. He was ordered to drive an armoured vehicle through a cottage full of Vietnamese civilians, which he did. This act also caused him to crack up and become a drug addict. When he returned to Australia after his tour, he said picked up his things, and they never saw him again.

He should have disobeyed the order he was given. Those who did not want to fight the war were acting in their own interests, but also in the interests of the Vietnamese.

 

[Troll]

That's because that is what many of them do. It's a fact. Just like there are Mullahs who want war, or Republicans.



I have told this story before, but I will tell it again. My family had some friends some years ago. They were also devout Catholics, and their oldest son went off to serve in Vietnam, like a good anti-communist. He was ordered to drive an armoured vehicle through a cottage full of Vietnamese civilians, which he did. This act also caused him to crack up and become a drug addict. When he returned to Australia after his tour, he said picked up his things, and they never saw him again.

He should have disobeyed the order he was given. Those who did not want to fight the war were acting in their own interests, but also in the interests of the Vietnamese.

Yeah he should have disobeyed it as it was an unlawful order. So you've merely proven that your family has a history of people acting in a less than intelligent manner. Good for you,I guess, since that seems to be the point you were trying to make.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yeah he should have disobeyed it as it was an unlawful order. So you've merely proven that your family has a history of people acting in a less than intelligent manner. Good for you,I guess, since that seems to be the point you were trying to make.

Not my family, some a family who was friends of our family. If you think that this sort of thing was an isolated incident, then you are pretty naieve. It sounds very much like the reason there is a growing revolt in the IDF. Such blatant tactics are not used, but the harrassment and worse of Palestinians is not what the members of the IDF feel is their job.

 

[Troll]

Not my family, some a family who was friends of our family. If you think that this sort of thing was an isolated incident, then you are pretty naieve. It sounds very much like the reason there is a growing revolt in the IDF. Such blatant tactics are not used, but the harrassment and worse of Palestinians is not what the members of the IDF feel is their job.

Now don't call me a racist, but what is with you Australians getting backed into a corner and then calling someone naive ( note the spelling for later use, please)?

Isolated incident? Doubtful, we have idiots in the US too. Common as you would like some of the US idiots to gather or assume? Nope

And our last posting had no mention of Israel or Palestinians. But i noticed you needed to bring that up in this post. Now I'm not calling you a racist or a bigot, but the last time I saw that happen tom Metzger had a big ass smile and was thinking he was right and the sane world was wrong.

 

[CapelDodger]

from Mycroft:

One doesn’t need to embrace patriotism to recognize a duty to his state, nor does one need to remove himself from moral duties to fulfill those obligations

I have a commitment to my community and to humanity in general, but not to anything as artificial as a "state". The fact that a state demands that you fulfill what it calls your "obligations" doesn't mean that you are excused any moral obligations. The same applies when the orders come from a religion. If what the state demands is immoral it should be avoided.

Your disdain for both patriotism and religion is noted. I’m happy to say I don’t share it, but you have my pity on both counts.

You, on the other hand, have my contempt.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
I have a commitment to my community and to humanity in general, but not to anything as artificial as a "state".

Spoken like a true narcissist. I’m sure you’re quite fashionable in some circles.

You receive the benefits of a state. You receive its services, are protected by its laws, and earn your living through the commerce it regulates. It doesn’t take a patriot to understand that these services, protections and regulations are necessary to maintain the life that you enjoy, and that there exists obligations among the citizenry to preserve them.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
The fact that a state demands that you fulfill what it calls your "obligations" doesn't mean that you are excused any moral obligations. The same applies when the orders come from a religion. If what the state demands is immoral it should be avoided.

If you truly believe your state or religion demand of you something that offends your sense of morality, and if your own ego-centric worldview can’t admit the possibility that another’s judgment could be as good or better than your own, then you also have an obligation to reform that state or religion. If you don’t have the moral character to do that in such a way that you still fulfill your obligations, then perhaps renouncing your state or religion is the best option for you.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
You, on the other hand, have my contempt.

Thank you, I’ll take that for the gift it is.

 

[a_unique_person]

Spoken like a true narcissist. I’m sure you’re quite fashionable in some circles.

You receive the benefits of a state. You receive its services, are protected by its laws, and earn your living through the commerce it regulates. It doesn’t take a patriot to understand that these services, protections and regulations are necessary to maintain the life that you enjoy, and that there exists obligations among the citizenry to preserve them.

Crazy talk. The state is a collective attempt to create benefits for all with the citizens consent. Now, for me, that includes compulsory voting. I don't see how it can include going out and killing or oppressing people you don't want to.

 

[Skeptic]

from Mycroft:

I have a commitment to my community and to humanity in general, but not to anything as artificial as a "state". The fact that a state demands that you fulfill what it calls your "obligations" doesn't mean that you are excused any moral obligations. The same applies when the orders come from a religion. If what the state demands is immoral it should be avoided.

You, on the other hand, have my contempt.

(Shrug)

The "humanity is my state" idea is very popular in some circles. It sounds cool... but in practice, what it REALLY means is "I won't do anything for the state".

Unlike "humanity" at large, or "your community", the state tends to make specific, often hard, demands. It is very easy to have "obligations to humanity"--"humanity" doesn't demand you pay taxes or risk your life in the army.

So, naturally, when the state demands something that might hurt your comfort or even risk your life, it turns out that these demands are "immoral" which you "have no obligation to fulfill". You are made for greater things. Let the peasants fight, silly creatures.

 

[a_unique_person]

from Mycroft:

I have a commitment to my community and to humanity in general, but not to anything as artificial as a "state". The fact that a state demands that you fulfill what it calls your "obligations" doesn't mean that you are excused any moral obligations. The same applies when the orders come from a religion. If what the state demands is immoral it should be avoided.

You, on the other hand, have my contempt.

(Shrug)

The "humanity is my state" idea is very popular in some circles. It sounds cool... but in practice, what it REALLY means is "I won't do anything for the state".

Unlike "humanity" at large, or "your community", the state tends to make specific, often hard, demands. It is very easy to have "obligations to humanity"--"humanity" doesn't demand you pay taxes or risk your life in the army.

So, naturally, when the state demands something that might hurt your comfort or even risk your life, it turns out that these demands are "immoral" which you "have no obligation to fulfill". You are made for greater things. Let the peasants fight, silly creatures.

Skeptic, (shrug), what a moron you truly are. I do not want to commit crimes in the name of the state, therefore I logically do not want to do anything for my state. Makes perfect sense, if you do not have any ability to reason.

 

[Cleopatra]

from Mycroft:

I have a commitment to my community and to humanity in general, but not to anything as artificial as a "state". The fact that a state demands that you fulfill what it calls your "obligations" doesn't mean that you are excused any moral obligations. The same applies when the orders come from a religion. If what the state demands is immoral it should be avoided.

Capel Dodger

Can you point to me a moral value that it's older than Religions and therefore it doesn't spring from them?

 

[LuxFerum]

Can you point to me a moral value that it's older than Religions and therefore it doesn't spring from them?

Do not die, and don't let your friends die.

 

[Ed]

That's because that is what many of them do. It's a fact. Just like there are Mullahs who want war, or Republicans.



I have told this story before, but I will tell it again. My family had some friends some years ago. They were also devout Catholics, and their oldest son went off to serve in Vietnam, like a good anti-communist. He was ordered to drive an armoured vehicle through a cottage full of Vietnamese civilians, which he did. This act also caused him to crack up and become a drug addict. When he returned to Australia after his tour, he said picked up his things, and they never saw him again.

He should have disobeyed the order he was given. Those who did not want to fight the war were acting in their own interests, but also in the interests of the Vietnamese.

Nice anecdote.

 

[Ed]

from Mycroft:

I have a commitment to my community and to humanity in general, but not to anything as artificial as a "state".

It appears that you wish to choose your own artificial definitions. Unfortunately a "commitment to humanity in general" is so vague as to be meaningless.

 

[Troll]

It appears that you wish to choose your own artificial definitions. Unfortunately a "commitment to humanity in general" is so vague as to be meaningless.

Damnit, and I was gonna use that excuse the next time I killed someone I thought was going to do harm to others. Way to take the fun out of murder and my defense, ED.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Skeptic, (shrug), what a moron you truly are. I do not want to commit crimes in the name of the state, therefore I logically do not want to do anything for my state. Makes perfect sense, if you do not have any ability to reason.

If one truly believes the state is demanding something immoral, one can act to reform the state without betraying the state. To hold oneself above the state is simple narcissism. To cloak such a thing in a mantle of “morality” is a rather ugly affectation indicative of an immature mind.