Is Islam an evil religion?

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bikerdruid said:
i think it's hilarious that bill has you on ignore.
you are knowledgable about islam.
if bill was really interested in the truth, he would be learning from you.
unortunately, he has an agenda that is not related to truth.
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I don't even want people to learn from me, necessarily. That was why I went into my rant earlier when arguing with tsig - there are tons and tons of free resources on the net and inexpensive books on Amazon that people can (and should) be learning from.

It's not like knowledge of what Muslims actually believe and talk about and argue about is some hidden, arcane thing available only to some elite few!
 
bikerdruid said:
he might have power over some branck of islam, but islam does not have a 'pope' anymore than christianity does.
the pope does not speak for baptists, any more than this grand poobah dude speaks for all of islam.
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As pointed out, there isn't even one single Grand Mufti, but a whole bunch of 'em.
 
bikerdruid said:
i think it's hilarious that bill has you on ignore.
you are knowledgable about islam.
if bill was really interested in the truth, he would be learning from you.
unortunately, he has an agenda that is not related to truth.
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Because facing AntPogo means his perception of reality is wrong and would force him to admit his world view is wrong.
 
It also says music is sinful, and those who listen to music will have molten lead poured into their ears on the day of judgement. No music? GTFO. I could almost handle no bacon sandwiches I reckon but no music = no chance.
 
I take my lead from long term research within a variety of Islamocentric message boards, not a disbelieving western Wikipedia page, in this case. Nearly all the big gun scholars say music is basically a nono.
 
Bad Lieutenant said:
I take my lead from long term research within a variety of Islamocentric message boards, not a disbelieving western Wikipedia page, in this case. Nearly all the big gun scholars say music is basically a nono.
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Riiight. Your experience on message boards is more substantial evidence than the plethora of Islamic Music that exists throughout the world.
 
Cleon said:
Riiight. Your experience on message boards is more substantial evidence than the plethora of Islamic Music that exists throughout the world.
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If/when Islam gets its act together and the chips are down (perish the thought) music is not permissible.


Ayatollah Ali Khamenei:

"The promotion of music [both traditional and Western] in schools is contrary to the goals and teachings of Islam, regardless of age and level of study."
 
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Bad Lieutenant said:
If/when Islam gets its act together and the chips are down (perish the thought) music is not permissible.


Ayatollah Ali Khamenei:

"The promotion of music [both traditional and Western] in schools is contrary to the goals and teachings of Islam, regardless of age and level of study."
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Hint: There is more than one version of Islam. Try the Sufies for one example where music is important.
 
Bad Lieutenant said:
If/when Islam gets it's act together and the chips are down (perish the thought) music is not permissible.


Ayatollah Ali Khamenei:

"The promotion of music [both traditional and Western] in schools is contrary to the goals and teachings of Islam, regardless of age and level of study."
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And yet, Iran has a fairly vibrant musical community.
 
There are many entries for Persian religious and devotional music in Google. Here's one example http://www.allmusic.com/explore/essay/religious-and-devotional-music-qawwali-t647
Qawwali is the premier Islamic devotional music form, and -- put simply -- a form of worship. Light classical in style, usually performed in verse followed by chorus fashion, call and response, it is the foremost Islamic devotional music of the Indian sub-continent, and one of the most popular of all Muslim idioms.

Only the light classical ghazal form of Persian descent is a contender for the hearts of Muslims. Closely associated with the mystical Sufi brotherhood, the word `qawwali' derives from the Persian qaul (literally, to tell). Qawwali itself means utterance. Its singers are called qawwals. Its popularity transcends religious and geographical boundaries and Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims alike sing its praises.

... A related poetic form called tarannum -- chanted Urdu poetry -- is widely appreciated where Urdu is spoken. Being chanted (as opposed to sung) it escapes the theological debate that has dogged qawwali.

Islamic theologians have long debated whether music is prohibited or permissible. Nevertheless the faithful have long been great lovers of music. Qawwali is not the recipient of universal acceptance among Muslims or even Sufis. Of the four silsilahs (literally, chains or lines) or Sufi orders, found in any numbers in the subcontinent -- Chishti, Suhrawardi, Naqshbandi and Qadiri ... -- only the Chishtis traditionally sought ecstatic inspiration and oneness with God through music. The Suhrawardis were indifferent to music's charms. The Naqshbandis rejected it outright.
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So it is appreciated by people, even as an act of devotion, while the clerics argue about it. Reminds me of traditional religious attitudes among the Presbyterians of my native Scotland.
 
For traditional Scottish Calvinist attitudes to instrumental music see http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/instcalv.htm
In prescribing, consequently, the singing of psalms without making any allusion to the restoration of instrumental music, it must, in all fairness, be construed to specify the simple singing of praise as a part of public worship. The question, moreover, is settled by the consideration that had any debate occurred as to the propriety of allowing the use of instrumental music, the Scottish commissioners would have vehemently and uncompromisingly opposed that measure.
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That's about the Westminster Assembly 1644. But the Free Churches haven't changed. Psalms only, no instruments.
 
Bad Lieutenant said:
If/when Islam gets its act together and the chips are down (perish the thought) music is not permissible.


Ayatollah Ali Khamenei:

"The promotion of music [both traditional and Western] in schools is contrary to the goals and teachings of Islam, regardless of age and level of study."
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That was issued only last year (it also only specifically talked about the "promotion and practice" of music...oddly, music itself was explicitly noted as halal).

It also hasn't done much in the way of stopping most Iranians from playing, singing, listening to, or learning music. The Borna News Agency even reported just a couple days ago that the Iranian Ministry of Culture has issued a permit for Iran's first music video channel.
 
Bad Lieutenant said:
Islam tells people they'll burn in hellfire eternal unless they do AB and C. Islam is an evil religion.
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If you define that as evil, then yes, Islam is evil. But then Christianity is evil too for the same reason. That is the point that many of us have been getting at in this thread: Islam has problems, but you can't single it out because other religions have virtually the same problems.
 
Bad Lieutenant said:
It also says music is sinful, and those who listen to music will have molten lead poured into their ears on the day of judgement. No music? GTFO. I could almost handle no bacon sandwiches I reckon but no music = no chance.
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There is no such hadith.
 
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