Is Amway A Scam?

[C1REX]

The more I learn about MLM the more I'm surprised how little I know.
The concept is completely different that my idea was few months ago.

However, the more I learn the more excited I am. Even knowing about the difficulties in this industry.

I'm also happy to say that I will be 6% this month. Almost all this through direct sells.

 

[marplots]

What does the 6% refer to? Percent of what?

 

[C1REX]

What does the 6% refer to? Percent of what?

Yes. On top of my 20% cash back from online shopping (personal and for my customers) I get additional 6% from sells of my entire group. In my case it was me and 1 more guy. It's very, very little but it feels like money from my own micro business and not employment

When I focus more on sells and less on recruiting I get much better results.
Lesson learnt.

 

[marplots]

Yes. On top of my 20% cash back from online shopping (personal and for my customers) I get additional 6% from sells of my entire group. In my case it was me and 1 more guy. It's very, very little but it feels like money from my own micro business and not employment

When I focus more on sells and less on recruiting I get much better results.
Lesson learnt.

Oh, I get it. I know that feeling; it's great. I still remember the first time I got paid real money for something I'd written - I'm a freelance writer. Fantastic. Even though it was "small money," it validated my decision to pursue my dream and made it all "real."

Watch out, you might get to like the feeling and become a lifelong entrepreneur (even without Amway).

 

[NewtonTrino]

Starting and running businesses is definitely a way to financial prosperity. That part is not really arguable and it's part of what makes the Amway scam work.

Oh, I get it. I know that feeling; it's great. I still remember the first time I got paid real money for something I'd written - I'm a freelance writer. Fantastic. Even though it was "small money," it validated my decision to pursue my dream and made it all "real."

As for that sales feeling you guys are talking about I've had that feeling a lot over the years. Honestly it never goes away and it still blows my mind when one of my products grosses a million dollars in a day.

Interestingly enough the families that started the amway corp are ultra wealthy. Of course they want you to distribute their products and make them rich. Think about that for a bit when comparing a real business to being an amway salesman who basically is just getting a volume discount. This is why the tools business is so insidious, they ride off the legit soap product and then come up with their own high margin products to sell to the real customers, their downline. Scam all the way.

 

[Joecool]

Starting and running businesses is definitely a way to financial prosperity. That part is not really arguable and it's part of what makes the Amway scam work.



As for that sales feeling you guys are talking about I've had that feeling a lot over the years. Honestly it never goes away and it still blows my mind when one of my products grosses a million dollars in a day.

Interestingly enough the families that started the amway corp are ultra wealthy. Of course they want you to distribute their products and make them rich. Think about that for a bit when comparing a real business to being an amway salesman who basically is just getting a volume discount. This is why the tools business is so insidious, they ride off the legit soap product and then come up with their own high margin products to sell to the real customers, their downline. Scam all the way.

What's funny, and icerat is guilty of this, is the Amway advocates seemingly identify themselves with Amway's success. In other words, they'll brag about how Amway did 12 billion in sales last year as if somehow that translates into personal success. The sad reality is that as Amway's sales go up, there are likely more people out there losing money.

Icerat also brags about all these "new diamonds" but doesn't mention that just as many diamonds may have failed to re-qualify and even if there are more new diamonds, there are even more downline losing money chasing the Amway dream.

 

[C1REX]

They are super wealthy and they got more wealthy every time somebody buys from Amway shop. You can be OK with that or not.

However most people makes somebody else wealthy anyway. Even if you have your own business you still pay to somebody or work for somebody. It's a matter of choice what is best for you.

MLM is not a good option for most people as a carrier choice. Very few can do good money.
However, people should have a choice to decide for themselves if they want to try a business with 0.001% chance of making profit.

 

[marplots]

MLM is not a good option for most people as a carrier choice. Very few can do good money.
However, people should have a choice to decide for themselves if they want to try a business with 0.001% chance of making profit.

Do you think there is a way to give these people what they need to make an informed decision before they join, or will each have to try it out for themselves?

I ask because I see a lot of problems with the second option.

 

[icerat]

Do you think there is a way to give these people what they need to make an informed decision before they join, or will each have to try it out for themselves?

I ask because I see a lot of problems with the second option.

what problems do you see with the second option? Isn't trying something yourself a useful part of due diligence?

 

[marplots]

what problems do you see with the second option? Isn't trying something yourself a useful part of due diligence?

Yes, but not the only or essential part.

If you consider the wealth of options for starting your own business, there needs to be strong filtering before the "try it and see" part. Generally, one has to be convinced that trying it will lead to a positive result. The doing then becomes an experiment to validate the previous analysis.

There is another theme I haven't touched on as well. Consider a process (generally) which varies in result based on personal characteristics instead of the system in play. That's a problem. It's a problem because those characteristics are only revealed post process and defined by the process.

Here's an example. Suppose I want to find a good golfer from among some random sample of people. I put them all on the golf course and after a round or two, take the top 5%.

At the start, all the players (and me too) believed they had a chance to make the cut. At the end, the winners think their belief was justified. But we are all ignoring two relevant items: 1) regression toward the mean effects which hide the role of chance, and 2) the process requires that 95% of the participants lose whatever time and effort they've spent.

In the end, all we've done is demonstrate that people are not very good predictors of their own success at a task with which they are unfamiliar and cannot vet with information outside of the task itself.

 

[icerat]

Yes, but not the only or essential part.

of course

If you consider the wealth of options for starting your own business, there needs to be strong filtering before the "try it and see" part. Generally, one has to be convinced that trying it will lead to a positive result. The doing then becomes an experiment to validate the previous analysis.

An impossible standard. You're basically saying don't try anything unless you know it will succeed ("a positive result")

Here's an example. Suppose I want to find a good golfer from among some random sample of people. I put them all on the golf course and after a round or two, take the top 5%.

You've got it backwards. In this scenario you're not trying to find a good golfer, you're trying to see if you can be a good golfer - is it something you like to do, are you willing to put in the time to learn the skills, and can it give you the result you're after.

At the start, all the players (and me too) believed they had a chance to make the cut. At the end, the winners think their belief was justified. But we are all ignoring two relevant items: 1) regression toward the mean effects which hide the role of chance, and 2) the process requires that 95% of the participants lose whatever time and effort they've spent.

What you seem to be suggesting is that if, say, my 8yr old son decides he'd like to be pro-golfer one day that I should basically not let him try golf because odds are he won't be a pro golfer?

In other words, nobody new should ever try golf since odds are they'll just lose whatever time and effort they've spent.

In the end, all we've done is demonstrate that people are not very good predictors of their own success at a task with which they are unfamiliar and cannot vet with information outside of the task itself.

Right, so if you can't reasonably estimate your odds of success at something, don't even try it out to see if you like it.

I vehemently disagree with that approach.

 

[marplots]

We are stuck because we are using "know" and "try" in different ways.

 

[Joecool]

An impossible standard. You're basically saying don't try anything unless you know it will succeed ("a positive result")



You've got it backwards. In this scenario you're not trying to find a good golfer, you're trying to see if you can be a good golfer - is it something you like to do, are you willing to put in the time to learn the skills, and can it give you the result you're after.



What you seem to be suggesting is that if, say, my 8yr old son decides he'd like to be pro-golfer one day that I should basically not let him try golf because odds are he won't be a pro golfer?

In other words, nobody new should ever try golf since odds are they'll just lose whatever time and effort they've spent.



Right, so if you can't reasonably estimate your odds of success at something, don't even try it out to see if you like it.

Based on income disclosures and the testimony and debate on this very thread, we know that success in Amway is very unlikely. While you may not risk a lot of money to "give it a try", its still nearly and exercise in futility given the stats we are aware of. Someone would be better off saving and actually trying to start a conventional business. While the cost is much higher, so is the likelihood of success. With due diligence and some work, I don't think anyone can deny that you would have a far greater likelihood of success compared to an MLM business.

 

[icerat]

We are stuck because we are using "know" and "try" in different ways.

explain please?

 

[marplots]

We are stuck because we are using "know" and "try" in different ways.

explain please?

Sure.

Here's what caught my eye:
"An impossible standard. You're basically saying don't try anything unless you know it will succeed ("a positive result")"

Try can mean:
1) Do something, or test by doing, as in "try this cake"
2) An examination, as in a trial by jury, of the available evidence.

Know can mean:
1) Be familiar with, especially as based on direct experience - "I know what that's like."
2) Understand through study or examination - "She knows a lot about Venus, although I'm sure she's never been."

 

[C1REX]

Do you think there is a way to give these people what they need to make an informed decision before they join, or will each have to try it out for themselves?

I ask because I see a lot of problems with the second option.

Not sure. Most companies follow the law and give lots of information. It's actually so mich info I haven't read all myself.

 

[icerat]

Sure.

Here's what caught my eye:
"An impossible standard. You're basically saying don't try anything unless you know it will succeed ("a positive result")"

Try can mean:
1) Do something, or test by doing, as in "try this cake"
2) An examination, as in a trial by jury, of the available evidence.

Know can mean:
1) Be familiar with, especially as based on direct experience - "I know what that's like."
2) Understand through study or examination - "She knows a lot about Venus, although I'm sure she's never been."

I would suggest that, where possible, both meanings of both terms would be part of due diligence

 

[C1REX]

Based on income disclosures and the testimony and debate on this very thread, we know that success in Amway is very unlikely. While you may not risk a lot of money to "give it a try", its still nearly and exercise in futility given the stats we are aware of. Someone would be better off saving and actually trying to start a conventional business. While the cost is much higher, so is the likelihood of success. With due diligence and some work, I don't think anyone can deny that you would have a far greater likelihood of success compared to an MLM business.

Based on income disclosure almost nobody makes money.
If you go to any meeting then quite few people there make money.

The more I learn about Amway the more it appears to me to be just an online shop that rewards you for selling (directly or through network). It's mostly up to you how you do business. Amway gives you the shop and compensation plan.

 

[Joecool]

Based on income disclosure almost nobody makes money.
If you go to any meeting then quite few people there make money.

The more I learn about Amway the more it appears to me to be just an online shop that rewards you for selling (directly or through network). It's mostly up to you how you do business. Amway gives you the shop and compensation plan.

The Amway income disclosures disregard people who "did nothing" yet it shows almost nobody makes money.

But if you go to a meeting, quite a few make money. Do you know this as fact or are there quite a few "say" they make money?

It's been shown that some folks who claim to make money in Amway are actually in debt and living check to check trying to "show" some kind of lifestyle. When you think about it, many people live in debt. Why would Amway bigshots be any different? A diamond lifestyle likely costs more than some diamonds make.

 

[C1REX]

But if you go to a meeting, quite a few make money. Do you know this as fact or are there quite a few "say" they make money?

I don't know this as a fact. I only see how many people receive a pin level. Then I can only calculate and guess how much they may earn. I've seen how much money my sponsor got from Amway and it was impressive. Not sure if he gets similar money every month.

The fact is there is no very big earners in UK. No crown ambassadors.