Is Amway A Scam?

[marplots]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

The most important for me is to _never_ argue. There is no way to win an argument.
Forum is a good example. Nobody change theirs mind here. Just get more sure about their point of view. Then get angry at people with different opinion.
Giving another arguments make them more sure about their point of view and dislike you more at the same time.

I post on different forums for years and I'm not sure if I've seen 1 person who changed their mind and was grateful for that.

I'm shocked myself I haven't noticed this before and was keep trying to convince people for years.

I think you are overdoing it there. It happens all the time. In the micro: My wife and I talk about where we might go for dinner and come to some compromise decision. In the macro: the nation argues it out and decides to change the laws on marijuana or gay marriage.

However, influence doesn't necessarily mean total control as in winning or losing an argument. It can mean helping to shape the debate or leading someone to a more informed decision. In short, I'd say it was about techniques that allow you to be heard, not obeyed.

 

[eirik]

My experience: On a personal level people change opinions on important matters all the time. It's just not as easy as one would like to think, and it takes a bit of time.

It rarely if ever happens in real time presented with an argument. A couple of weeks is fast in these matters, and a year or years is not unusual. And it doesn't often happen with a cataclysmic realization. You mature into the new ideas, and just happen one day to find another position more appealing.

That's why you don't get to see the eureka moments on the forums or in real life. But the exchange of ideas in real life and on forums is a vital part of the process.

Another function of forums and exchange of ideas is to appeal to the undecided public. These are probably easier and faster, as there is often less cognitive dissonance, deep held beliefs, bias or other irrational defences to withstand a rational argument.

 

[icerat]

Another function of forums and exchange of ideas is to appeal to the undecided public. These are probably easier and faster, as there is often less cognitive dissonance, deep held beliefs, bias or other irrational defences to withstand a rational argument.

This is the main reason I bother with the several Amway threads on JREF. Thread starter Joecool has been virulently anti-amway for more than a decade. So are several other posters on this thread (I've several on ignore to be honest). There's no "influencing" their positions.

This thread alone however has been viewed nearly 60,000 times. I occasionally receive PMs from "lurkers" who aren't participating but have told me my contributions have influenced their perspective.

So I'll continue to provide my experience and knowledge in the field.

 

[ComfySlippers]

This is the main reason I bother with the several Amway threads on JREF. Thread starter Joecool has been virulently anti-amway for more than a decade. So are several other posters on this thread (I've several on ignore to be honest). There's no "influencing" their positions.



This thread alone however has been viewed nearly 60,000 times. I occasionally receive PMs from "lurkers" who aren't participating but have told me my contributions have influenced their perspective.



So I'll continue to provide my experience and knowledge in the field.

Lovely.

Doesn't change the fact that Amway is a scam though.

 

[The Don]

Lovely.

Doesn't change the fact that Amway is a scam though.

Well icerat's contributions have convinced me that, in the UK at least, Amway isn't a scam, it's just a really, really bad business opportunity which has then attracted a coterie of scammers who piggyback on the (rubbish) core business.

I'm sure that if you work hard enough, are willing to put friends and relatives in awkward positions and avoid the marketing materials then it's perfectly possible to turn a modest loss

 

[icerat]

Well icerat's contributions have convinced me that, in the UK at least, Amway isn't a scam, it's just a really, really bad business opportunity which has then attracted a coterie of scammers who piggyback on the (rubbish) core business.

I'm sure that if you work hard enough, are willing to put friends and relatives in awkward positions and avoid the marketing materials then it's perfectly possible to turn a modest loss

Lovely.

Doesn't change the fact that Amway is a scam though.

QED

 

[ComfySlippers]

I fear for humanity.
Amway is a scam.
It's a pyramid scheme.
Technically, according to silly U.S. Rulings, it isn't.
Because there is a product involved.

However.
It's still a scam designed to attract the gullible/deluded members of society.

It's a scam btw.

 

[icerat]

I fear for humanity.
Amway is a scam.
It's a pyramid scheme.
Technically, according to silly U.S. Rulings, it isn't.
Because there is a product involved.

No technicalities involved. Have you read the FTC vs Amway decision? Or Koscot, which defines what a pyramid scheme is?

For that matter, what do you think a pyramid scheme is?

However.
It's still a scam designed to attract the gullible/deluded members of society.

It's a scam btw.

I built an Amway business for several years. I've researched and written about the company for more than a decade.

You can certainly use Amway to scam people, and some people have, but the concept itself is not a scam.

 

[Wowbagger]

Amway is a scam.
It's a pyramid scheme.

Pyramid schemes and MLMs are not quite the same thing: http://www.wikihow.com/Distinguish-Between-a-Pyramid-Scheme-and-Multi-Level-Marketing

Amway might still be a scam, for various reasons. But, beng a pyramid scheme is not one of them.

 

[icerat]

Pyramid schemes and MLMs are not quite the same thing: http://www.wikihow.com/Distinguish-Between-a-Pyramid-Scheme-and-Multi-Level-Marketing

Amway might still be a scam, for various reasons. But, beng a pyramid scheme is not one of them.

Thanks for that link, hadn't seen it before. Here's one issue I have from it-

"Finally, multi-level marketing companies are legal although structured almost exactly like a pyramid scheme"

Legitimate traditional MLMs aren't really structured "almost exactly like a pyramid scheme" any more than "traditional distribution" is.

Non-traditional MLMs (binary/matrix systems etc) are even less like a classic pyramid scheme - but ironically more likely to be scams.

 

[Joecool]

This is the main reason I bother with the several Amway threads on JREF. Thread starter Joecool has been virulently anti-amway for more than a decade. So are several other posters on this thread (I've several on ignore to be honest). There's no "influencing" their positions.

This thread alone however has been viewed nearly 60,000 times. I occasionally receive PMs from "lurkers" who aren't participating but have told me my contributions have influenced their perspective.

So I'll continue to provide my experience and knowledge in the field.

And the reason I am here is because Icerat wants to put rose colored glasses on everyone who looks at Amway. He's gone so far as to lie about Amway and it's products. He's even taken countless hours to attack me personally on other forums.

But the bottom line is that you are nearly guaranteed to fail as an Amway business owner unless you have a unique ability to convince others that this is a good idea. The income disclosures released by the Amway corporation verify my claim. The average active (not the ones who do nothing) distributor earns $202 a month gross. These active distributors include the mega millionaires that parade themselves around at Amway functions and meetings.

 

[C1REX]

The numbers showing only 0.0001% of people making money with Amway make me even more eager to actually do it It's a challenge.
Especially after I met real people who made insane money with Amway.

Amway may not be the easiest business but it has certain aspects that are attractive to me. Quality business trainings is one of them.

 

[icerat]

The numbers showing only 0.0001% of people making money with Amway make me even more eager to actually do it It's a challenge.

Hate to take away your challenge but that figure is not even close to accurate even when counting all the inactive people and shoppers.

You have to be careful with your sources. "Critics" like, for example, to talk about the average monthly income in the US of $202 but for some reason they neglect to mention you can become part of that statistic just through buying stuff for your own use, and they also tend to neglect to mention it's an average of monthly bonuses only - no retail sales profit and, importantly, all the yearly bonuses (which can be in the millions) are not included in the calculation.

I can't imagine why it is they neglect to mention such facts ....

 

[Joecool]

Hate to take away your challenge but that figure is not even close to accurate even when counting all the inactive people and shoppers.

You have to be careful with your sources. "Critics" like, for example, to talk about the average monthly income in the US of $202 but for some reason they neglect to mention you can become part of that statistic just through buying stuff for your own use, and they also tend to neglect to mention it's an average of monthly bonuses only - no retail sales profit and, importantly, all the yearly bonuses (which can be in the millions) are not included in the calculation.

I can't imagine why it is they neglect to mention such facts ....

Funny how you didn't mention that the $202 average monthly income did not include people who did nothing, which was more than 50% of the IBO population. You also did not mention that the $202 includes the monthly incomes of the diamonds, crown ambassadors and other high level pins. (But did not count their annual bonuses).

We should also note that $202 is gross income and does not include taxes and business expenses, which can be significant in the Amway business. That $202 can also include IBO's who put in full time hours and earn $10 a month.

I can't imagine why icerat neglects to mention such facts.

 

[marplots]

The statistics, by themselves shouldn't sway you to continue or not. What's more important is figuring out what underlies the numbers so you can see if you are an exception or not. One way to do it is to try the shoes on and walk around a bit. Another way is to look for "deal killers."

Although I enjoyed my little time interacting with the local Amway folks (many years ago), I quickly decided I didn't want to be like the top performing members of the group. That is, the things they thought valuable in life did not mirror the things I did, and the things they did to achieve those other things were not things I wanted to do. Bad fit for me. Deal killer.

Of course, none of this is unique to Amway or even MLMs generally. The only important nuance is that "it works for me" may have to be duplicated for you to create a downline worth having. So one of the aspects to consider is how unique that status may be, assuming you intend to recruit a team of like-minded folks.

 

[icerat]

Although I enjoyed my little time interacting with the local Amway folks (many years ago), I quickly decided I didn't want to be like the top performing members of the group. That is, the things they thought valuable in life did not mirror the things I did, and the things they did to achieve those other things were not things I wanted to do. Bad fit for me. Deal killer.

Whereas I had the exact opposite experience. I found role models for the first time. People of integrity who are sincerely focused on helping make the world a better place.



Having said that, I've seen videos of other Amway leaders and organisations that were more along the lines of what I'm guessing you experienced. It wouldn't attract me either.

 

[marplots]

Whereas I had the exact opposite experience. I found role models for the first time. People of integrity who are sincerely focused on helping make the world a better place.



Having said that, I've seen videos of other Amway leaders and organisations that were more along the lines of what I'm guessing you experienced. It wouldn't attract me either.

In summary: Amway, YMMV

 

[icerat]

In summary: Amway, YMMV

This is the thing. Amway is HUGE. Even most Amway people have no idea about how big it is. You can be sitting in a stadium of 30000 Amway people in the US (which I think joecool claims to have done in the 90s) and you're still experiencing less than 2% of Amway people just in North America, and no more than half a percent of it globally.

It's huge and it's varied. Last month a new guy in my group, Tony, invited a contact around to check out the business. He called to cancel due to a sick child and asked for some more info and in the conversation (with my wife) the fact it was with Amway came up, and he explained he had been in Amway before and knew all about it, great products but he wasn't interested right now, pursuing other opportunities. Great, that's fine - my wife asked if he'd be open to Tony practicing his presentation on him since it could be more relaxed and low key. He was happy to help.

The guy came around and they did the presentation. He'd never seen anything remotely like what we do. His Amway experience was buying cookware sets and going door-to-door demoing it and selling cookware. That's what he thought Amway was all about and what we were doing.

Amway is big, and Amway is diverse.

 

[Joecool]

This is the thing. Amway is HUGE. Even most Amway people have no idea about how big it is. You can be sitting in a stadium of 30000 Amway people in the US (which I think joecool claims to have done in the 90s) and you're still experiencing less than 2% of Amway people just in North America, and no more than half a percent of it globally.

Icerat likes to create a false dichotomy. When he talks about the dismal average income of IBOs, he likes to disregard IBOs because as he says, the vast majority do nothing and out of the remaining, many are basically just buyer's club shoppers. (Amway says they are not a buyer's club)

But when he talks about business builders, he uses the entire IBO population and says only a small percentage use the tools and may have been taught unethical/bad business practices. Imagine that.

The guy came around and they did the presentation. He'd never seen anything remotely like what we do. His Amway experience was buying cookware sets and going door-to-door demoing it and selling cookware. That's what he thought Amway was all about and what we were doing.

Amway is big, and Amway is diverse.

And oddly enough, there are stories on the internet that seem to confirm that Icerat's Amway group (network 21), operates just like the other Amway groups, which is to sell tools and functions to IBOs for a profit, regardless of whether those IBOs make a profit or not.

 

[Joecool]

C1Rex posted this on the scam.com forum on 7/22/14

http://www.scam.com/showpost.php?p=1772135&postcount=68

I agree. MLM is a bad choice if you want to make money. Especially if you want to make it quickly.

It's true that most people don't do any money in MLM. Most people don't put any job and many times don't even buy any products.

I have a downline of few people and only 3 bought anything for themselves.
Few days ago I've got a guy who is willing to work. He was signed up under me by my sponsor. I was asked to help him because he is the same nationality as me.

After 6 months of being in MLM I'm not able to help him. I don't know how. I don't have a plan.
I don't have skills to teach him. Embarrassing but also very motivating for me to learn how to do it professionally. Challenge for myself is to do it 100% ethically.

Kris