I must be COMPLETELY crazy, but..

[Geezer]

The one mentioned by the Encyclopedia Judaica..or the Jewish Encyclopedia.

are you suggesting that historic Palestine includes.....the Negev???

includes Petra?

includes Amman?

lololol

here are some good maps of historic Palestine:

http://www.davidrumsey.com/rumsey/Size2/D0114/0594066.jpg

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/pictorial_bible_maps_1856_palestine_4595x5254-600_tn.png

http://www.davidrumsey.com/rumsey/Size2/D0006/00062057.jpg

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/br...stine-at-the-time-of-christ_1594_2303_600.jpg

http://www.hipkiss.org/data/maps/br...y_holy-bible_1899_palestine_1594_2303_600.jpg

anyone with eyeballs can see that the GREAT majority of Jordan ain't part of it.

Am I to understand that you use maps that in turn use the bible as a source?
Can I use fictional stories too?

EDIT:Oh the last one was a more modern one...which shows the inhabited parts of Jordan as a part of Palestine

 

[Thunder]

Am I to understand that you use maps that in turn use the bible as a source?
Can I use fictional stories too?

as far as actual events are concerned, the Bible is a poor source.

but some arbitrary things, like geographical boundaries and such, can be considered more reliable.

what sources do YOU use to define the borders of Historic Palestine? care to link to some maps?

and when I say Historic Palestine, I mean the lands that were part of the Jewish Kingdoms, the Roman Province of Judaea, the Byzantine kingdoms, and the Crusader Kingdoms.

 

[Geezer]

as far as actual events are concerned, the Bible is a poor source.

but some arbitrary things, like geographical boundaries and such, can be considered more reliable.

what sources do YOU use to define the borders of Historic Palestine? care to link to some maps?

and when I say Historic Palestine, I mean the lands that were part of the Jewish Kingdoms, the Roman Province of Judaea, the Byzantine kingdoms, and the Crusader Kingdoms.

Read my edits if you haven't already

So your definition of Palestine does indeed contain Palaestina Tertia then?That was a part of the Byzantine Empire after all?
A part from that I would like to know why you feel it's more correct to use that definition that is about 800 years out of date as compared to the one that is only 60-70 years out of date?

 

[Thunder]

Read my edits if you haven't already

So your definition of Palestine does indeed contain Palaestina Tertia then?That was a part of the Byzantine Empire after all?
A part from that I would like to know why you feel it's more correct to use that definition that is about 800 years out of date as compared to the one that is only 60-70 years out of date?

The British Mandate borders, that included modern day Jordan, lasted for a grand total of 4 years.

I don't consider this to have much historical weight. Clearly, for some odd reason, you do.

 

[Geezer]

as far as actual events are concerned, the Bible is a poor source.

but some arbitrary things, like geographical boundaries and such, can be considered more reliable.

what sources do YOU use to define the borders of Historic Palestine? care to link to some maps?

and when I say Historic Palestine, I mean the lands that were part of the Jewish Kingdoms, the Roman Province of Judaea, the Byzantine kingdoms, and the Crusader Kingdoms.

We agree about the bible and events, that's something.
As to the "historic Palestine" as a hobby historian (very hobby indeed) I say it's a myth, as the maps I linked to shows borders move so in my opinion your definition is as much a construct as the other borders in the middle-east today.

 

[Thunder]

We agree about the bible and events, that's something.
As to the "historic Palestine" as a hobby historian (very hobby indeed) I say it's a myth, as the maps I linked to shows borders move so in my opinion your definition is as much a construct as the other borders in the middle-east today.

in my observations, the bordeers of historic Palestine always has the same central territorial core. i am sure you will not disagree with that.

as to the far perimeter areas, those do alter from century to century, and from conquest to conquest.

but this is really besides the point.

modern day Jordan...the great majority of it at least, was never considered part of Palestine. except for those silly 4 years between 1922 and 1926 when Britain was trying to sort things out.

 

[Geezer]

The British Mandate borders, that included modern day Jordan, lasted for a grand total of 4 years.

I don't consider this to have much historical weight. Clearly, for some odd reason, you do.

Nothing odd about it, I just say that if you are going to go back 1000 years you can just as easily go back another 1000 years and then the area you talk about was jewish and therefore the extremists in Israel are correct...the land is theirs.

And by that logic most of the mediterrean countries should brush up on their Italian.

Far easier imo to declare Jordan the homeland of the Palestinians

 

[Geezer]

in my observations, the bordeers of historic Palestine always has the same central territorial core. i am sure you will not disagree with that.

as to the far perimeter areas, those do alter from century to century, and from conquest to conquest.

but this is really besides the point.

modern day Jordan...the great majority of it at least, was never considered part of Palestine. except for those silly 4 years between 1922 and 1926 when Britain was trying to sort things out.

The great majority of modern day Jordan is empty desert, the population as far as I know live in the western part.

 

[Geezer]

Or we could use this map one from the middle-ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg

I doubt the Israelis will go for that one though

 

[Thunder]

Or we could use this map one from the middle-ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg

I doubt the Israelis will go for that one though

its actually not that bad....accept for that label "Jordan".

The state of Jordan is a completely modern invention.

 

[Thunder]

Far easier imo to declare Jordan the homeland of the Palestinians

That's all fine. Call Jordan "Palestine" and link it up with the other 95% of the West Bank.

I have no problem with this whatsoever.

 

[Geezer]

That's all fine. Call Jordan "Palestine" and link it up with the other 95% of the West Bank.

I have no problem with this whatsoever.

Sadly of course those who use the conflict to stay in power will never go for it.
So it's a moot point I fear.

 

[tyr_13]

only when truth is challenged by idiots.

Seriously, calling me an idiot for asking what turns out to be a completely valid question?

 

[Skeptic]

Of course you're an idiot.

You disagreed with him, didn't you?

What MORE proof do you want?

 

[tyr_13]

Of course you're an idiot.

You disagreed with him, didn't you?

What MORE proof do you want?

But I didn't even disagree.

 

[Skeptic]

But I didn't even disagree.

Well, yes, but you ASKED A QUESTION. Only an idiot will doubt his infinite wisdom to such a degrees as to ASK A QUESTION, right? You don't ask the all-knowing any questions, you know. If you don't understand something he says the first time, it's your damn fault.

 

[Marc39]

Just a tip...the people that live over on the other side of that river (the Jordan) are not the same and are not a simple plug pin compatible swapout with the people that live in the region known as the "west bank"...This is pretty basic stuff.

Just a tip...The so-called Palestinians and the Jordanians are the same. They are all Arabs. This is pretty basic stuff.

Former PLO leader Zuhair Mohsen...

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

 

[Thunder]

Just a tip...The so-called Palestinians and the Jordanians are the same. They are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

Um....Jewish-Americans and Israeli-Jews are the same. They are both Jews.


I guess all Israeli Jews should just move to Long Island then?

 

[tyr_13]

Um....Jewish-Americans and Israeli-Jews are the same. They are both Jews.


I guess all Israeli Jews should just move to Long Island then?

It isn't being suggested that all Palestinians be moved to Jordan, but Jordan be extended to include a lot of the west bank.

Unless you were suggesting that Israel become part of New York, in which case I can say that they might not like our budget problems.

 

[marksman]

Unless you were suggesting that Israel become part of New York, in which case I can say that they might not like our budget problems.

Throw Italy in there, and we'll have merged three of the most dysfunctional legislatures in the world.