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I must be COMPLETELY crazy, but..

Skeptic said:
Yes, my evil plan is to solve the Palestinian problem by wiping out the artiicial creation called Jordan off the map. Just like the PLO's plan is to solve the Palestinian problem by wiping out the artificial creation called Israel off the map. .
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considering only 10% of the West Bank is west of the Hafrada Wall, what percent of the West Bank do you think Israel should be able to keep?
 
The problem IMHO is that the plan is too sane and simple for humans generally.

We humans can sometimes be like the Hatfields and McCoys. After a while of X taking revenge on Y, and Y taking reveng on X for it, everyone has largely forgot what were they fighting for. They just want more revenge, i.e., to continue the cycle of violence.

The "enlightenment" moment for me came when watching a documentary on some French TV channel about the previous civil war in Lebanon. The one in the 70's and 80's, not the one with Israel.

So the reporter was talking to some woman who told them about all the horrors that they suffered, and among other things showed them some church or temple or whatever you call it. Apparently some civillians took reffuge in there during an attack, but then an artillery shell entered through a window and exploded in the middle of the room. Large explosion, confined space, you get the idea.

So then she asks for help from the western world.

And just when I'm thinking "yeah, we should really do something to stop that massacre"... turns out that it's not the kind of help she wanted. She was asking for weapons so they can do the same to the other side.

Jaw dropping moment, to say the least.

That's humans for you. And we shouldn't be too surprised if a lot of the arabs and israelis are the same. There'll be a lot who don't want peace at all. They're not interested in a peace plan. They just want someone to erase Israel off the map. Or conversely that someone wipes the Palestinians off the map.
 
HansMustermann said:
The problem IMHO is that the plan is too sane and simple for humans generally.
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Yep, It would all be so simple if these people would just give up on Nationhood. After all, its not all that important. Its absolutely fundamental and non negotiable for the Israelis but we can't expect other to feel the same can we? After all.....for peace I would give up statehood. I would be quite happy to simply become British again. After all, we are very alike. It makes me wonder why Jews in Palestine were so against the Idea of Staying under the British. Much simpler if they had just gave up on all that homeland rubbish.


Edited to add....I just had an Idea...Canada could become part of america. I can hardly tell the difference between them
 
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To "The Fool's" suggestion:

If America was:

1). 80% Jewish.
2). Known as the Jewish homeland or "Israel" until a few decades ago, until for political reasons it changed (or was forced to change) its name to "The USA".
3). Made up of the exact same families as those of the Jews in Israel.
4). Had the same customs, language, religion, food, literature, etc., as Israel
5). Even the American flag were actually the Israeli flag with an extra small star added to it,

Etc., etc., etc. ...

Then, why, yes, in that case I would say that America is the Jewish homeland in all but name, and that probably admitting this fact and chaging its name to "Israel" would make solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict easier.

Wouldn't you?

The so-called "two state solution" from the PLO is, as they openly say, merely the pretext to get land to destroy Israel with (let alone Hamas). My two state solution, I believe, is better for everyone -- including the Palestinians themselves, whether in the west bank or in the rest of Palestine.

But it doesn't keep the "staged plan" and the desire for a genocidal end of the dirty Jews alive, which is why the PLO will rejected as not fitting with "the Palestinian people's inalianable rights". But the only rights they really care about are the "right" to terrorism (or as they call it, "resistance") and the "right" of return (destroying Israel demographically).

But I agree. In my plan, there is no room for (sniff) "moderates" like the stage-plan-promoting, holocaust-denying, kleptocratic thugs like "Dr." Abbas (his dissertation "proves" the holocaut never happened) and others like him from the "moderate" PLO.

Tsk tsk. How can we make peace without a genocidal terrorist organization?
 
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The Fool said:
Yep, It would all be so simple if these people would just give up on Nationhood. After all, its not all that important. Its absolutely fundamental and non negotiable for the Israelis but we can't expect other to feel the same can we? After all.....for peace I would give up statehood. I would be quite happy to simply become British again. After all, we are very alike. It makes me wonder why Jews in Palestine were so against the Idea of Staying under the British. Much simpler if they had just gave up on all that homeland rubbish.


Edited to add....I just had an Idea...Canada could become part of america. I can hardly tell the difference between them
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They should of accepted their statehood in 47! It is their own fault for everything that has happened after that!
 
The Fool said:
Yep, It would all be so simple if these people would just give up on Nationhood. After all, its not all that important. Its absolutely fundamental and non negotiable for the Israelis but we can't expect other to feel the same can we? After all.....for peace I would give up statehood. I would be quite happy to simply become British again. After all, we are very alike. It makes me wonder why Jews in Palestine were so against the Idea of Staying under the British. Much simpler if they had just gave up on all that homeland rubbish.


Edited to add....I just had an Idea...Canada could become part of america. I can hardly tell the difference between them
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To be honest, indeed I am not very fond of arbitrary "us vs them" criteria. And nationhood entirely too often gets used for that.

I can't help noticing that we're actually doing a lot better in Europe, for example, after we opened the borders and started to think of ourselves a bit more like "we're europeans" (though by far not entirely) than in the bad old days of "us vs our enemies across that river." (Or behind that line of fortifications;))

We already had stuff like, say, you might remember that old quarrel in 1938 about whether the majorly German population of the Sudetenland should be given to Germany or they should stay under the Czechs. And they too had complaints like that poor Czechs are settling in their territory, surprisingly like what I hear from Palestine. I'm saying you might remember it, because it's that's what it was about when Chamberlain came back waving that piece of paper and proclaiming that he secured peace in his time.

Was it worth the whole human misery and being used to agitate for war?

And BTW, in this context it's also worth remembering that the misfortune of those people didn't end with the war. After WW2, the communists simply did an expulsion of all ethnic Germans from Czechoslowakia, including, again, from places where they had been the majority of the population for several centuries.

It seems to me like we're all better off since we stopped trying to find reasons to redraw the silly lines on the map, and to fight over who gets to be on my side of the border and who gets to be on yours.
 
HansMustermann said:
We already had stuff like, say, you might remember that old quarrel in 1938 about whether the majorly German population of the Sudetenland should be given to Germany or they should stay under the Czechs. And they too had complaints like that poor Czechs are settling in their territory, surprisingly like what I hear from Palestine. I'm saying you might remember it, because it's that's what it was about when Chamberlain came back waving that piece of paper and proclaiming that he secured peace in his time.
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Like Obama is doing in his Cairo speech.
 
It's been tried. Israel invaded it.
 
I do wish TFT would make up his mind. EITHER Israel, as he said in a different thread, controls the USA, decides who will be president, etc., etc.; OR, as he is suggesting now, it is a vassal state, a useless appendage of the great imperialist power, the USA.

Once more, it can hardly be both, logically speaking. Then again, TFT, I believe, claimed 9/11 is an inside job (no doubt by the Jews), so "logically" might mean something else for him than to the rest of us.
 
In any case, the idea is to seperate the PALESTINIANS from the PLO. The Palestinians are an Arab nation. They live today mostly in what is Jordan, which was used to be known as Palestine. They do not necessarily wish to genocide the Jews or destroy Israel.

The PLO, on the other hand, is an Egyptian-created terrorist organization whose sole raison d'etre is Israel's destruction by stages. The relation between the two is more or less like the relationship between the Iraqis in general and Sadr's militants, or the Iranians in general and their loony leaders.

As was to be expected, the only thing the PLO rule brought to the Palestinians in the territory is internal terror, corruption, and threats. The only thing it did with all the money it got was (a) steal it, (b) use the part not stolen to buy weapons to kill Jews.

Take, as a typical example, Abbas, the "moderate" PLO man. He constantly claims he will never give up the "right of return" or recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state; he is a billionaire from stolen funds; he brags that the "Armed struggle" will be resumed at any time and that the Oslo accords were part of the "staged plan" for Israel's destruction (at least his boss, Arafat, and his direct underling, the PA's ambassador to Lebanon, to name a few of many I could name, claim so); his "security" forces killed more Israelies than Hamas; he brags that he "fired the first bullet" towards Israel in 1964 (This was long before "the occpation" which is to blame for everything. Strange, isn't it?). His Ph.D. thesis claims the holocaust is a zionist lie.

And this is the BEST the PLO can do, the face of moderation and "peace". You can well imagine what the rest are like. In fact there's no need to imagine. Read MEMRI or many other publications and you'll see for yourself.

The Palestinians deserve a state. They have one -- Jordan. They deserve not to live under occupation. They can do that -- if Jordan negotiates new borders with Israel and get its citizens and territory back in return to peace. They care about the refugee. All of them can go back to Jordan -- to join the 80% of the population that is Palestinian.

The PLO, however, cares nothing for peace, a state, the refugees, or ending occupation. It cares merely for the "staged plan" for Israel's destruction. So negotiating with it will result solely in genocide and expusion -- either of the Jews, if the "staged plan" succeeds, or of the Palestinians, if the Jews wake up in time and fight back.

All the PLO, Abbas included, deserve, is six feet of earth.
 
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Skeptic said:
The Palestinians deserve a state. They have one -- Jordan. They deserve not to live under occupation. They can do that -- if Jordan negotiates new borders with Israel and get its citizens and territory back in return to peace.
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Isreal invaded it before which created internal political difficulties. Why would Jordan want to risk that happening again?

Jordan also has enough issues with two lots of refugees. It really doesn't need 2.4 million extra people to worry about right now.
 
Skeptic said:
I do wish TFT would make up his mind. EITHER Israel, as he said in a different thread, controls the USA, decides who will be president, etc., etc.; OR, as he is suggesting now, it is a vassal state, a useless appendage of the great imperialist power, the USA.

Once more, it can hardly be both, logically speaking. Then again, TFT, I believe, claimed 9/11 is an inside job (no doubt by the Jews), so "logically" might mean something else for him than to the rest of us.
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Even though 2 whole pages were moved to AAH today which your previous defamatiry allegations against me were a big part of you carry on espite being warned by the mods.

I just received a warning for asking another poster to back up their OT and offensive defamatory claims ( which I've appealed ), so instead I've just reported you. Your seeming immunity from suspension is noted.
 
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The Fool said:
Yep, It would all be so simple if these people would just give up on Nationhood. After all, its not all that important. Its absolutely fundamental and non negotiable for the Israelis but we can't expect other to feel the same can we? After all.....for peace I would give up statehood. I would be quite happy to simply become British again. After all, we are very alike. It makes me wonder why Jews in Palestine were so against the Idea of Staying under the British. Much simpler if they had just gave up on all that homeland rubbish.


Edited to add....I just had an Idea...Canada could become part of america. I can hardly tell the difference between them
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Well said The Fool. As usual any solution by a Zionist Apologist is biased and one sided to Israel.

Why can't Palestine just be Palestine ( or whatever it's agreed to called it ) and not be the racist state it currently is. Jews would still be entitled to live there as their homeland and Arabs and other peoples could also do so without the current racial sectarianism and apartheid violently imposed by the Zionists who greedily want it all for themselves.

Pretty similar to what happened to BEFORE the Zionist Movement started it's racist agenda!
 
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Skeptic said:
Once more, it can hardly be both, logically speaking. Then again, TFT, I believe, claimed 9/11 is an inside job (no doubt by the Jews), so "logically" might mean something else for him than to the rest of us.
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You really should stop using "anti-semitism" like a censorship tool.

Your posts are a disgrace to the memory of the 6 million.

anyways, would you accept a plan that gave Israel +/-10% of the West Bank, and the rest becomes part of Jordan?
 
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Skeptic said:
I do wish TFT would make up his mind. EITHER Israel, as he said in a different thread, controls the USA, decides who will be president, etc., etc.; OR, as he is suggesting now, it is a vassal state, a useless appendage of the great imperialist power, the USA.

Once more, it can hardly be both, logically speaking. Then again, TFT, I believe, claimed 9/11 is an inside job (no doubt by the Jews), so "logically" might mean something else for him than to the rest of us.
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Indeed.

Tin Foil Timothy said:
note: We can't take the US State Dept seriously when the USA is clearly the next 50 states of Israel :rolleyes:
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Tin Foil Timothy said:
Israel is by far the biggest recipient of US aid. Of course that is not surprising considering that for many Israel is the 1st state of the US.
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Another thing:

Those who are shocked -- SHOCKED! -- at the HERETICAL suggestion that Jordan is actually Palestine in all but name JUST BECUASE it is 80% Palestinian, was known as "Palestine" for hundreds of years (until the 1920s), has the exact same language, culture, families, and food...

...are, unsurprisingly, the same people who think that Israel is a "colonialist enterprise" merely because in the past Jews came -- or were kicked out -- of Europe, so they are "really" European. Never mind 3000 years of Jewish history showing what the Jews think of Eretz Israel, 2000 years of pogroms showing what the Europeans think of the Jews, etc.

But if THAT doesn't stop the Jews from "really" being "foreigners" and "occupiers" and "colonialists" because they are "really" Europeans (not to mention that 60% of Jews in Israel were kicked out of the Arab world -- another obvious fact ignored by the "anti-colonialists" haters of zionism), why should a 30-ft.-wide river, the Jordan (by the way -- contrary to what some seem to think, based on its extremely famous status due to the bible, it is no Mississippi...) magically make one Arab a "Palestinian" and another, of the exact same family in fact, a "Jordanian"?

Let us imagine it was the other way. From the Middeteranian to Iraq, there was a Jewish state. 80% Jewish. Jewish for hundreds of years. Now, in an attempt to kick out into the sea Arabs who came to live in a small area next to the sea -- simply because they're not Jews -- the Egyptians, together with the "Jewish Liberation Organization" they set up, declares that all the area east of the Jordan is "really", er, Hebraia, and the people who live there are Hebrews, and NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, Jews. Therefore, the poor, stateless Jews on the west of the Jordan MUST have their own, Jewish state, at the expenwe of the Arabs there, en route to the total destruction of the Arab state there, in stages.

THAT is the plan. That is what -- only replace "Arab" with "Jews" -- the suppoters of the PLO's "two-state solution" (actually, "the staged plan" for Israel's destruction) wittingly or unwittingly support.
 
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Skeptic said:
Another thing:

Those who are shocked -- SHOCKED! -- at the HERETICAL suggestion that Jordan is actually Palestine in all but name JUST BECUASE it is 80% Palestinian, was known as "Palestine" for hundreds of years (until the 1920s), has the exact same language, culture, families, and food...

...are, unsurprisingly, the same people who think that Israel is a "colonialist enterprise" merely because in the past Jews came -- or were kicked out -- of Europe, so they are "really" European. Never mind 3000 years of Jewish history showing what the Jews think of Eretz Israel, 2000 years of pogroms showing what the Europeans think of the Jews, etc.

But if THAT doesn't stop the Jews from "really" being "foreigners" and "occupiers" and "colonialists" because they are "really" Europeans (not to mention that 60% of Jews in Israel were kicked out of the Arab world -- another obvious fact ignored by the "anti-colonialists" haters of zionism), why should a 30-ft.-wide river, the Jordan (by the way -- contrary to what some seem to think, based on its extremely famous status due to the bible, it is no Mississippi...) magically make one Arab a "Palestinian" and another, of the exact same family in fact, a "Jordanian"?
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This kind of attitude is exactly why peace will never happen in the Middle East.

As long as racist attitudes exist that believe that one group of people is more entitled to a zone of land than another group of people then there will NEVER be peace.


On the other hand there's no reason why ordinary people of all groups can't live side by side together. There's no need for sectarianism and divisive, racist borders. get rid of the racism and everyone lives in harmany.

The very concept of 'Israel' is racist. Which means Israel is prejudice and offensive. In a supposedly civilized world there's no room for this abhorrence and the amount of lost lives and suffering spent because of this just makes it even worse.

Why can't the land of Palestine be open for anyone with a right to be there? Not just Jews but Arabs too. What's causing the problems is the Zionists trying to make the region Jews only. This is racist. Why not open up the land to both Jews and Arabs? Start integrating people. Ordinary people are not racist they are hospitable and decent. Palestine can still be homeland for Jews without all this racism. The land is big enough for every one. What kind of retarded mentality says that the land is only fit for one group of people based upon their ethnicity?

The 2 state solution is NOT a solution it's racist. There's no need for 2 staes to segregate people.Everyone can live in peace side by side in the same street. They don't need separate compounds for seperate ethnicities.

Jeez get rid of these borders and let Jews, Arabs, Martians, etc, etc all live in the same land. We're all human beings FFS

A 2 state solution is total BS. Israel is by default racist and a Palestinian state would be by default racist.


It's divisive and will only end in even more tears.
 
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