How the Shanksville Crater Was Made

[JohnG]

For any lurking Truthers or fence sitters out there, this is what yankee451 says he believes:

1. The government wanted to lead the country into war with the claim that terrorists crashed a jet into a field.

2. But instead of actually crashing a jet into a field, they crashed missiles into a field.

3. Missiles that didn't exist at the time of the crash.

4. And instead of making the wreckage look like a jet crash, they made it look like a missile crash.

5. And despite the fact it looked like a missile crash and not a jet crash, they managed to fool or co-opt or silence all crash scene investigators, everywhere, but somehow didn't fool or co-opt or silence yankee451, who is not a crash scene investigator and may very well lack the ability to discern a jet crash from a missile crash.

If this all holds together in your opinion, by all means break your silence and show yankee451 your support. I am certain he'd appreciate it (no trolls, poes or smart alecks, please).

Or, if you believe that the government was in some way behind 9/11 but this specific theory of yankee451 strikes you in any way absurd or improbable, don't let your cause be derailed by someone intentionally or unintentionally making the Truth Movement look foolish. Call him on it.

Whether you agree or disagree with yankee451, you are doing your movement a disservice by remaining silent. I may disagree with yankee451, but at least he is putting himself out there and saying what he believes.

What's holding you back?

 

[chris lz]

but at least he is putting himself out there and saying what he believes.

He is and he isn't, depending on the question. He can't seem to say whether it's possible for a plane's fuselage to do a disappearing act. I gave him a chance to tell us, and instead he asked for my credentials.

 

[yankee451]

Wow, amazingly you posted all your evidence all at once, in one very concise post. You even hand-waved better than your fantasy.


Missile used, not in the inventory on 911. How can you try harder to debunk your own fantasy? It would be hard to impossible.

Are you incapable of discussing this without getting so emotional? Why do the missiles need to be in the inventory? They were in production, and a mere two months after 9/11 the Air Force was bragging all about them. If you were tasked with this job would you use weapons that were in inventory or not - I take it you'd like to leave a paper trail for investigators by taking missiles off the shelf and signing off on their check sheet as 'covert operation'.

Your grandkids will have no doubt about you.

They will undoubtedly still think I'm the cat's pajamas. I owe it to them to not leave them a world where they can be sent to war believing an impossible lie.

What do you think about those who died on 911?
Originally Posted by yankee451
You mistake me for someone who cares ...

Not content with putting words in my mouth, you've added creative writing to boot.

From my blog:

We need to be careful of falling into the “all or nothing” trap. Not having victims in the planes does not mean there were no victims. Just because some victims are fraudulent does not mean they all are, but claiming none of this was real is dishonest, disrespectful and just plain creepy.
http://yankee451.com/2012/05/01/911-emergency-room/

 

[yankee451]

For any lurking Truthers or fence sitters out there, this is what yankee451 says he believes:

1. The government wanted to lead the country into war with the claim that terrorists crashed a jet into a field.

2. But instead of actually crashing a jet into a field, they crashed missiles into a field.

3. Missiles that didn't exist at the time of the crash.

4. And instead of making the wreckage look like a jet crash, they made it look like a missile crash.

5. And despite the fact it looked like a missile crash and not a jet crash, they managed to fool or co-opt or silence all crash scene investigators, everywhere, but somehow didn't fool or co-opt or silence yankee451, who is not a crash scene investigator and may very well lack the ability to discern a jet crash from a missile crash.

If this all holds together in your opinion, by all means break your silence and show yankee451 your support. I am certain he'd appreciate it (no trolls, poes or smart alecks, please).

Or, if you believe that the government was in some way behind 9/11 but this specific theory of yankee451 strikes you in any way absurd or improbable, don't let your cause be derailed by someone intentionally or unintentionally making the Truth Movement look foolish. Call him on it.

Whether you agree or disagree with yankee451, you are doing your movement a disservice by remaining silent. I may disagree with yankee451, but at least he is putting himself out there and saying what he believes.

What's holding you back?

To digest the implications of 9/11 requires a paradigm shift of one's perception of society. Most people cannot deal with the implications and therefore resort to ridicule, cognitive dissonance and denial.

The official story required either that one descended into total intellectual
senility in order to still believe it – perhaps deliberately made ridiculous for
that very purpose – or else that one keep ones intellect alive but destroy
almost everything that one had previously believed about how society
works.
http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=82

 

[threadworm]

claiming none of this was real is dishonest, disrespectful and just plain creepy.

Pretty much covers it.

 

[Mudcat]

Are you incapable of discussing this without getting so emotional? Why do the missiles need to be in the inventory? They were in production, and a mere two months after 9/11 the Air Force was bragging all about them. If you were tasked with this job would you use weapons that were in inventory or not - I take it you'd like to leave a paper trail for investigators by taking missiles off the shelf and signing off on their check sheet as 'covert operation'.

Even experimental missiles are part of the inventory where they are being stored and tested. Where's the paper trail if they were used in this manner?

From my blog:

I see only weasel wording.

 

[yankee451]

I see only weasel wording.

I feel your pain.

 

[JohnG]

To digest the implications of 9/11 requires a paradigm shift of one's perception of society. Most people cannot deal with the implications and therefore resort to ridicule, cognitive dissonance and denial.

Towards the end of his life, someone very dear to me, who lived in a senior citizens home, contracted a fever. While in the throes of this fever he became delirious and claimed that every night when all the visitors had left the home, the staff (who were, according to him, secretly satan worshippers) released hundreds of cats throughout the home, herding groups of residents out into the backyard where they were shot and buried in mass graves. He was terrified and begged me to sneak him out of the home. I initially tried to appeal to his reason, explaining the many ways that his story did not make sense:

"There can't be hundreds of cats roaming the halls", I'd say. I'm allergic and I'd be sneezing my head off".

"These are special cats that no one is allegeric to", he told me somberly.

"You said people are being taken out into the back yard to be shot and buried, but I don't see any graves."

"They've covered the graves with fake grass" he said.

"If people are being killed and disappearing, their relatives would surely notice they are missing and report it to the police."

"The relatives are being paid off to stay quiet."

This deeply depressing little tête-à-tête went on for a little while longer and I realized that in his current state there was literally no reasoning with him. I finally tried to appeal to his courage, saying that he had always been a brave man and had to remain brave now. This seemed to quiet him down. Thankfully the next day the fever broke and if he had any recollection of his fever dream conspiracy theory, he didn't mention it and returned to his jovial self. He died of natural causes a couple years later at the age of 98 and needless to say in the ten years since there were never any stories in the news about residents disappearing mysteriously, packs of sinister, albeit hypoallergenic cats, mass graves or anything else suspicious or bizarre in that senior citizens home.

I'm sorry to say it but when I listen to the desperate rationalizations of conspiracy theorists, I am sadly reminded of evil cats and senior citizen firing squads. Not only does it not make a lick of sense, there is no evidence for it and it is infinitely more likely that the theorist has misinterpreted/misunderstood and/or twisted the facts to fit his theory.

You object to the war in Iraq? Guess what, so do I, but there are already perfectly valid reasons to object not only to the war itself but how we got into the war, you don't need to invent any more. On the contrary, doing so makes it harder to address the actual valid objections because they have been are buried by CTists under some unwieldy and absurd George Orwell meets George Lucas conspiracy thriller.

 

[yankee451]

Asked and answered already. There are several air crashes with results similar to Flight 93, but none exactly the same.

Why is this suspicious to you?

Not even remotely the same for reasons outlined ad nasea.

Face it, the only reason you believe what you believe is because everyone else does and the only reason they do is because they saw it aaalll on the TeeVee. You have no evidence to back up any of your claims. Sniping and squriming and twisting words is not a discussion. You have nothing.

 

[yankee451]

You object to the war in Iraq? Guess what, so do I, but there are already perfectly valid reasons to object not only to the war itself but how we got into the war, you don't need to invent any more. On the contrary, doing so makes it harder to address the actual valid objections because they have been are buried by CTists under some unwieldy and absurd George Orwell meets George Lucas conspiracy thriller.

Interesting story, but not a much about the topic. I see a trend.

 

[yankee451]

Pretty much covers it.

Pretending it was real is just plain sick.

 

[JohnG]

Interesting story, but not a much about the topic. I see a trend.

Well, that's just fantastic, yankee. It took me the better part of an hour to write/rewrite what was for me a very personal and heartfelt post and in the space of three minutes you read it, immediately dismissed it and still found time for a glib, content free response. I think I liked it better when you were pretending to have me on your ignore list.

Good luck to you, or more to the point good luck to your family. They can't be loving the fact that you have apparently been devoting all of your waking hours to this perverse and pointless hobby of yours. You are wrong, ridiculously, hideously wrong about what happened on 9/11 but clearly your fever hasn't broken yet.

 

[yankee451]

Well, that's just fantastic, yankee. It took me the better part of an hour to write/rewrite what was for me a very personal and heartfelt post and in the space of three minutes you read it, immediately dismissed it and still found time for a glib, content free response. I think I liked it better when you were pretending to have me on your ignore list.

Good luck to you, or more to the point good luck to your family. They can't be loving the fact that you have apparently been devoting all of your waking hours to this perverse and pointless hobby of yours. You are wrong, ridiculously, hideously wrong about what happened on 9/11 but clearly your fever hasn't broken yet.

Don't lecture me about being glib when I have brought rational argument backed up with evidence and you bring nothing but insults and ridicule. You don't get the luxury of calling my years of hard work the "desperate rationalizations of conspiracy theorists" and expect respect in return. It is you who are desperately rationalizing which is why you bring mocking ridicule instead of reasoned argument. Either try to prove your case or don't, but spare me your supercilious lectures.

 

[dafydd]

Remember, I'm the guy saying that based on other jet crashes, Shanksville looks nothing like one. But if it doesn't look like a jet crash

But you know nothing about jet crashes, this thread is proof of that.

 

[JohnG]

Don't lecture me about being glib when I have brought rational argument backed up with evidence and you bring nothing but insults and ridicule. You don't get the luxury of calling my years of hard work the "desperate rationalizations of conspiracy theorists" and expect respect in return. It is you who are desperately rationalizing which is why you bring mocking ridicule instead of reasoned argument. Either try to prove your case or don't, but spare me your supercilious lectures.

You are being ridiculed because you are wrong and because you are incapable of honest debate. Dozens of people here have presented you with thoughtful, detailed posts explaining exactly why you are wrong and you almost invariably respond with limp one liners and insults.

You are wrong about 9/11 but you are intellectually and/or emotionally incapable of recognizing, let alone admitting that your wrong.

Good grief, man, your instincts are so embarrassingly off-kilter that you thanked another poster for his support when he was openly mocking you! By all means, don't take my word for it, though. Ask him yourself.

For your own sake, why don't you stop posting here or a couple of weeks before your temper gets the better of you again and the mods make you go away. Spend some time with your family and forget about 9/11 for a while. If you haven't made the world "see the light" abut 9/11 in the past 11 years, another couple of weeks won't make much difference, will it? If nothing else, I'm sure your family will appreciate it and surely that counts for something?

 

[Kid Eager]

Don't lecture me about being glib when I have brought rational argument backed up with evidence and you bring nothing but insults and ridicule. You don't get the luxury of calling my years of hard work the "desperate rationalizations of conspiracy theorists" and expect respect in return. It is you who are desperately rationalizing which is why you bring mocking ridicule instead of reasoned argument. Either try to prove your case or don't, but spare me your supercilious lectures.

Ho hum. Still awaiting evidence.

I think I see the problem here - you've brought an argument to an evidence fight.

Pounding the table in the absence of the requisite physics and evidence is rather transparent. Spare me your feigned indignation.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I have brought rational argument backed up with evidence

That's demonstrably false. It's been demonstrated to be false time after time. You ignore facts and just repeat and repeat your stupid lies.

Your "rational argument" is that the huge preponderance of evidence, inconveniently contradictory to your dumb story, is therefore fake, despite the literally incredible coverup that this would entail.

Your "rational argument" is that the Evil Cabal decided to fake a 757 crash but instead of just crashing a 757, they faked the whole thing blah, blah radar, crater, passengers, airport, blah, blah. It's been covered so many times it hardly needs rehearsing again.

Your "rational argument" if presented at a planning meeting of the Evil Cabal would have earned you a one way trip to the mutant sea bass tank and they'd have gone ahead with the simple 757 crash as planned.


Your "evidence" consists of a NASA photograph of a crater with an ejecta trail left in sand by a high speed impact from a 1/4" pyrex ball.

And that's all. That's your entire case.

This is useless as evidence because it shows the opposite of what you need it to show. You want us to imagine you believe missiles would leave a trench with a crater at the far end, but you have never shown any evidence that such a thing ever happens.

You want us to believe missiles, not yet in service and lacking the pinpoint accuracy your fantasy requires, were used to dig a plane shaped hole despite there being no clear flight line for one of the missiles to hit where you claim it did and there being absolutely no rational reason to dig the hole explosively in the first place.

You have the gall to claim a jet couldn't have made the jet shaped crater (filled with jet parts and to which a jet was tracked on radar) merely because you claim different crash sites in different circumstances didn't look the same to you.

Can you see how unimpressive your trolling argument is? Must try harder.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

So the passengers weren't real at all Yankee? That what you're saying?

 

[Sunstealer]

So the passengers weren't real at all Yankee? That what you're saying?

Nothing is real to Yankee. He just dismisses everything counter to his own point of view and claim no matter what. Even if you took him to meet all the relatives of the dead, every crash site investigator, took him to see the debris that was recovered etc, etc, etc he'd still just dismiss the lot in a single hand-wave.

It's utterly pointless to argue.

This thread should have gone to AAH ages ago.

 

[abaddon]

Pretending it was real is just plain sick.

Pissing on peoples graves? Acceptable?