How the Shanksville Crater Was Made

[Axxman300]

Anyone? Anything about the thread? Any more complaints about the measurements?

Anyone want to explain better than I have how a 757 can disappear into the ground?

Has any other high speed crash disappeared like this?

No?

Better attack the messenger.

Your measurements such as they are, fail to rule out a 767, and fail to rule in any kind of missile or explosive.

The crater is not consistent - in any way - with any number of cruise missile detonations. While the US has been at war since 2001, and there are hundreds of good photos of bomb damage caused by a variety of air-dropped ordinance, you have provided a lone photo that has nothing to do with any of them, nor does it reflect similar terrain.

Most of the plane went into the trees, which is where much of it was found.

There have not been that many high-speed crashes in aviation history that match UA93. Most planes are trying not to crash when they go down.

You (and when I say you, I mean everyone else) can look up airplane crash info here:

http://planecrashinfo.com/

But I know you won't look.

Your theory fails because you can't tell us where the missiles came from, or even which exact missile type was used. There is a chain of evidence that is easy to follow: Someone made the missiles, someone bought the missiles, someone shipped the missiles, someone received the missiles, someone stored the missiles and then retrieved them, someone moved the missiles to the flightline, someone loaded the missiles, someone flew the plane-programmed the target data- and released the missile.

At every step there is evidence. Duty logs, flight logs, tower logs, air-to-ground recordings, flight recordings (video & audio), security logs, and other sundry paper work. At every step there are also eye-witnesses. Your theory demands a minimum of 75 people.

You want to run an experiment costing thousands of dollars, but you won't spend the small amount of money for FOIA to requisition those logs, or post requests with various USAF associations looking for witnesses. Every man and woman in uniform can remember everything that happened on 9/11/2001. It is a rich resource to mine, even if you didn't ask them directly, and if it happened the way you claim then someone saw something.

You are a hack.

 

[Mudcat]

The engines of an aircraft are subjected to forces that the rest of the airframe are not.

One little niggle... Since when are engines part of the airframe?

 

[Redwood]

The NWO secret cabal still want to hear your pitch for why they shouldn't just crash a 757 into a field.

They are puzzled why Agent 451 believes it is imperative to fire unproven missiles into the field to create a gash like the real plane would make.

They are alarmed to read in the spec for the missiles how low the probability is that they can achieve a neat, symmetrical impact pattern.

They are not at all happy at the scale and expense of the operation needed to seed the crash site with debris from a genuine crash site and to 'clear up' air traffic control, airport workers, eyewitnesses, cellphone companies etc.

Number One strokes Mr Bigglesworth. He wants you to throw him a frikkin' bone. All he wants to do is crash a frikkin' plane, and you're giving him this BS. Why are you so stuck on this insane missile scheme?

His finger strokes the button.

Your "Dr. Evil" posts make this thread worth reading! Let me try something similar, if off-topic - inspired by the Coen Brothers film, The Big Lebowski:

Scene: The Oval Office. The WTC conspirators are discussing plans to bring the media into the Conspiracy.

Cast:
President Dick Cheney, played by John Goodman
Nominal President George W. Bush, played by Jesse Flanagan
Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld, played by Steve Buscemi
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, played by Philip Seymour Hoffman
Presidential Adviser Karl Rove, played by David Huddleston

Dick Cheney: We must, absolutely must have media coverage of our demolition of Building Seven! (Even though we'll pass it off as collapse due to fire.) I want to see U.S. troops shouting "Remember Building Seven!" as they mow down thousands of Ay-Rabs! I want "Remember Building Seven" to go down in history alongside "Remember the Alamo". And that's why we need to bring the BBC into the Vast Conspiracy, and let them know ahead of time that we're going to pull the building, so they can cover it!

Rove: [Expletive deleted] Yeah!

Wolfowitz: Excellent idea, sir!

George Bush: (Stares blankly, grunts slightly and scratches himself)

Don Rumsfeld (looking askance at Paul Wolfowitz): Well, Mr. President Cheney, sir, I'm not so sure there's much point in that, sir. Nobody will be killed in the demolition of Building 7, right? And besides, won't there be plenty of media around, anyway? And the BBC - aren't they a bunch of Moslem-loving, pinko liberals? Those idiot Brits are likely to do something really stupid like announce it ahead of time by mistake! Why don't we just tell all our friends at Fox News, and let them handle it?

Dick Cheney: Because, Donnie, that's too obvious! We need the BBC!

Rove: [Expletive deleted] Yeah!

Paul Wolfowitz: Good point, sir!

George Bush: (Stares blankly, grunts slightly, and scratches himself.)

Don Rumsfeld (looking askance at Wolfowitz): Well, sir, if we absolutely must have coverage of Building 7, why don't we just equip some of our thousands of New York operatives with video cameras, station them near the building, and record it on our own? Then, if nobody covers it, we can just shop it around to the media as a scoop! This conspiracy seems dangerously large already, and this way, we don't have to add any more people to it!

Dick Cheney: Shut the [expletive deleted] up, Donnie!

(Wolfowitz and Rove look pityingly on the dejected Don Rumsfeld. George Bush stares blankly, grunts slightly, and scratches himself. Fade to black)

 

[Animal]

Your measurements such as they are, fail to rule out a 767, and fail to rule in any kind of missile or explosive.

The crater is not consistent - in any way - with any number of cruise missile detonations. While the US has been at war since 2001, and there are hundreds of good photos of bomb damage caused by a variety of air-dropped ordinance, you have provided a lone photo that has nothing to do with any of them, nor does it reflect similar terrain.

Most of the plane went into the trees, which is where much of it was found.

There have not been that many high-speed crashes in aviation history that match UA93. Most planes are trying not to crash when they go down.

You (and when I say you, I mean everyone else) can look up airplane crash info here:

http://planecrashinfo.com/

But I know you won't look.

Your theory fails because you can't tell us where the missiles came from, or even which exact missile type was used. There is a chain of evidence that is easy to follow: Someone made the missiles, someone bought the missiles, someone shipped the missiles, someone received the missiles, someone stored the missiles and then retrieved them, someone moved the missiles to the flightline, someone loaded the missiles, someone flew the plane-programmed the target data- and released the missile.

At every step there is evidence. Duty logs, flight logs, tower logs, air-to-ground recordings, flight recordings (video & audio), security logs, and other sundry paper work. At every step there are also eye-witnesses. Your theory demands a minimum of 75 people.

You want to run an experiment costing thousands of dollars, but you won't spend the small amount of money for FOIA to requisition those logs, or post requests with various USAF associations looking for witnesses. Every man and woman in uniform can remember everything that happened on 9/11/2001. It is a rich resource to mine, even if you didn't ask them directly, and if it happened the way you claim then someone saw something.

You are a hack.

Probably the closest was the DC-10 crash in Chicago in 1979

 

[waypastvne]

Since when are engines part of the airframe?

When they are attached to the airframe.

 

[Mudcat]

When they are attached to the airframe.

Understood, thanks for the information.

It's just that I was taught that the airframe and the powerplants were separate things (with propellers as the third).

 

[SUSpilot]

One little niggle... Since when are engines part of the airframe?

[derail]You know, one of my favorite questions to ask students or pilots during flight reviews is "when it comes time for inspections, what's the difference between an aircraft and an airframe?"[/derail]

 

[SUSpilot]

When they are attached to the airframe.

Ummm.

See my other post. If a plane gets, say an annual inspection, and the IA signs off the airframe, you need to find annuals for the power plant, propellor (if a prop plane), and life-limited parts in the logs. If he signs it off as an aircraft, then everything's covered by one log entry.

Not that it makes any difference to the current conversation.

 

[Mudcat]

Ummm.

See my other post. If a plane gets, say an annual inspection, and the IA signs off the airframe, you need to find annuals for the power plant, propellor (if a prop plane), and life-limited parts in the logs. If he signs it off as an aircraft, then everything's covered by one log entry.

Not that it makes any difference to the current conversation.

I see, that's probably where I got the confusion from, because it was when we were learning about logbooks. Like if we are replacing a lead acid battery attached to a reciprocating engine. What log book are you making in an entry in? Answer: The Airframe log book.

 

[swright777]

Average lane size on rural roads is about 10 feet, average shoulder width of a human male is about 17-18 inches.

Where did you find the info about the average shoulder width? Just wondering if you made that up too or am I a mutant.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Understood, thanks for the information.

It's just that I was taught that the airframe and the powerplants were separate things (with propellers as the third).

As I understand it, the airframe is manufactured independently of the engines. The purchaser of the airframe chooses the engines they want to go with the airframe.

(I learned this reading the Michael Chrichton novel "Airframe". He did a lot of research on airliners for that book.)

 

[fess]

So the lighter, hollow, less-massive wing the engine was attached to disappeared into the ground leaving a gash, but the heavier, denser, more-massive engine bounced into the woods but didn't leave a crater in the wing gash.

Check.

What makes you think that the wings are lighter, and hollow, or less massive? Several posters have posted diagrams of the wings, and it would seem that you have ignored them. After all, aren’t the wings carrying the entire weight of the aircraft?

And no, I don’t believe that the entire wing disappeared into the ground. Quite a few of the bits and pieces of debris scattered around the crash site were probably parts of the wing.

Check?

 

[Mudcat]

As I understand it, the airframe is manufactured independently of the engines. The purchaser of the airframe chooses the engines they want to go with the airframe.

That's the way I understand it as well. However the engine must be what is recommended by the airframe's TCDS, or be allowed by a STC.

 

[leftysergeant]

What makes you think that the wings are lighter, and hollow, or less massive? Several posters have posted diagrams of the wings, and it would seem that you have ignored them. After all, aren’t the wings carrying the entire weight of the aircraft?

Wings are also much better-braced internally, with more front to back ribs than the fuselage. They are also less compressable vertically than the fuselage.

 

[chris lz]

Do you think he's given up?

 

[yankee451]

Where did you find the info about the average shoulder width? Just wondering if you made that up too or am I a mutant.

Got it from a quick google search. My estimate was pretty close to google's measuring tool, and I have conceded the point.

 

[yankee451]

Do you think he's given up?

Hardly.

 

[twinstead]

Hardly.

Why would you? God forbid you admit maybe you don't know everything.

 

[Mark F]

Do you think he's given up?

He's preparing his legal brief for the KSM defense team.

Oh no wait, he's still just trolling with nonsense.

 

[yankee451]

Engineering model is in the works.

Better get your excuses ready.