How the Shanksville Crater Was Made

[yankee451]

But what about the evidence for the missiles? You can't just ignore that! Here is the evidence that missiles did it:
..
....
......
......

oops....

The planes only work by ignoring the physical evidence, which is what I examined to lead me to the missiles. Any ballistics 'experts' on this board? If so, consider this a challenge to prove the crater isn't better answered by penetrating warheads in crossfire at trajectories of less than 10 degrees from horizontal. I'm still working on hiring an engineer, so you'll get a jump on me.

Should be a cake walk for all the swinging credentials hanging here.

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

So does your training mean you're more or less likely to think critically?

Yes, his training means he's more or less likely to think critically.



You, on the other hand...

 

[yankee451]

Yes, his training means he's more or less likely to think critically.



You, on the other hand...

haha, good one.

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

haha, good one.

I have a good straight man

 

[beachnut]

The planes only work by ignoring the physical evidence, which is what I examined to lead me to the missiles. Any ballistics 'experts' on this board? If so, consider this a challenge to prove the crater isn't better answered by penetrating warheads in crossfire at trajectories of less than 10 degrees from horizontal. I'm still working on hiring an engineer, so you'll get a jump on me.

Should be a cake walk for all the swinging credentials hanging here.

The missile you picked was not in the inventory.

You left out how the missile was shot, the missile not in the inventory.
You left out why there were no blast effects.

You showed this photo of balls of Pyrex, at 4.75 degree making a crater, but left out the engine crater when you photoshopped two Pyrex ball craters into one fake 757 crater without engine dimples, and no tail fin mark. All done at 3800 mph.

Does your missile go 3800 mph to make the craters?

What angle, because at 10 degrees the hollow ball craters or one crater.

Did you mean to debunk yourself with this?

How fast were these tests, and why did you pick a Pyrex ball. Are JASSMs like Pyrex balls, or hollow Al balls? Wait, a JASSM is like a hollow tube which can't do 911.

How fast is your missile, and why did you use 3800 mph impact craters at 4.75 degree to fake the 757 impact crater? What do two impacts really look like. You can't photoshop real impact craters. Your fantasy gets more insane the more you post.

Your evidence had failed.

The planes only work by ignoring the physical evidence, which is what I examined to lead me to the missiles. Any ballistics 'experts' on this board? If so, consider this a challenge to prove the crater isn't better answered by penetrating warheads in crossfire at trajectories of less than 10 degrees from horizontal. I'm still working on hiring an engineer, so you'll get a jump on me.

Should be a cake walk for all the swinging credentials hanging here.

You ignore tons of Flt 93, is it due to ignorance or hate?

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris11e.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris11c.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris12.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris18sm.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris8sm.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris21sm.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris22sm.jpg

You are debunked again.
Can you see? Are you blind? What does 451 stand for?

 

[yankee451]

I have a good straight man

He's on fire!

But seriously folks, try the veal.

 

[NoahFence]

He's on fire!

But seriously folks, try the veal.

Still here? Impressive.

 

[Slowvehicle]

OK, now find us a video of two missiles doing it from opposite directions with pinpoint accuracy to form the crater shape you claim is made that way.

...wouldn't such a video be, at the very least, NSFW?

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

Still here? Impressive.

He takes a lickin' and keeps on dickin'

 

[threadworm]

...wouldn't such a video be, at the very least, NSFW?

Only if they were love missile f1-11s

 

[Oystein]

The oblique trajectories of the projectiles can be calculated from the shape of the crater.

Missles do that.

Your links don't provide any evidence that the JASSM missile produces craters full of 767 debris and passenger remains, but at least one proves that sub-sonic planes can penetrate walls quite easily. From http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1998/news_release_980209n.htm :

The sled test was conducted Jan. 24 at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., using an inert warhead and an instrumented fuze. The purpose was to collect full-scale test data to validate the models used for predicting the performance of the warhead casing and fuze.

...The warhead struck the thick, reinforced concrete target, penetrated through it and traveled another half mile down range. The clean exit hole it left indicates that it had maintained the desired straight trajectory while traversing the thick target.
...
The warhead is approximately 60 inches long, 12 inches in diameter, and 900 pounds in weight (which includes over 200 pounds of explosive). It uses a fuze that has already been qualified on another program.

"Inert warhead" means one without explosives.

12 inches diameter is close to the contact area between WTC perimeter column and 767 wing.
900 pounds is 1/300th the mass of AA11.

Both the JASSM and AA11 were going fast but subsonic, between 200 and 250 m/s.

If the JASSM's inertia penetrates a "thick, reinforced concrete" wall and keep going with considerable momentum, why can't AA11's inertia penetrate a wall that is half glass windows, and otherwise half an inch thin steel, and keep going with considerable momentum?

 

[yankee451]

Those craters in the experiment were created at projectile speeds of 1,700 m/s.
A cruise missile travels sub-sonic, no more than 250 m/s.

Kinetic energy increases with velocity squared.
1,700² = 2,890,000
250² = 62,500
Factor between the two: ca. 46x.
So your 900 lbs warhead at 250 m/s would bring the same energy as a 19.5 lbs projectile at 1,700 m/s.

BUT a lot more impulse: 225,000 lbs*m/s vs. 33,000 lbs*m/s - a factor of almost 7.

Impulse and energy are conserved in the impact.
I am not quite sure about modelling this, but the difference of speeds, which is the same as the difference of impulses, would certainly express itself in the amount of deformation (effect of inelastic collision) vs. mass ejection (elastic collsion).

In other words, it is doubtfull that you could even compare the two!

Next up, you ignore the vast differences in soil properties - one beeing perfectly dry and loose, one being wet and sticky.


Bottom line: You just imagine things might look the same, and it's your fantasy that this constitutes evidence.
It doesn't.


However, as you make a claim, the burden of evidence is on you.


Meanwhile, you ignore or handwave 100% of the actual evidence.

Estimating only the amount of energy at impact doesn't tell us the trajectory of the projectile and whether the warhead can account for the resulting crater and ejecta. At a shallow trajectory the warhead would 'push' the soil in the direction of travel and out to the sides, probably even tunneling beneath the surface with the ground falling into the gash created by its passing. This could account for the closeup photos of the grass "growing" in the craters. The official measurements of the gash vary, but from the photographs the central crater roughly matcjes the capabilities of these missiles.

Reporters were taken to the top of a nearby hill, overlooking a V-shaped gouge in the field. The gouge is 8- to 10-feet deep and 15- to 20-feet long, said Capt. Frank Monaco of the Pennsylvania State Police.
http://old.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010911paplanep3.asp

In comparing the crater to the width of the road, it appears bigger than the above description, but it shouldn't be too tough to gauge the gouge from photographs.

http://911blogger.com/news/2007-03-28/new-high-quality-shanksville-crater-footage-0

 

[Oystein]

Estimating only the amount of energy at impact doesn't tell us the trajectory of the projectile and whether the warhead can account for the resulting crater and ejecta. At a shallow trajectory the warhead would 'push' the soil in the direction of travel and out to the sides, probably even tunneling beneath the surface with the ground falling into the gash created by its passing. This could account for the closeup photos of the grass "growing" in the craters. The official measurements of the gash vary, but from the photographs the central crater roughly matcjes the capabilities of these missiles.



In comparing the crater to the width of the road, it appears bigger than the above description, but it shouldn't be too tough to gauge the gouge from photographs.

[qimg]http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/shamnksville-road.png[/qimg]
http://911blogger.com/news/2007-03-28/new-high-quality-shanksville-crater-footage-0

The highlighted part - you know this ... how?

And which part of your post addresses the math I provided?
Remember, YOU posted images of craters in dry, loose quartz made by small hypersonic projectiles, and implied that, if a small, hypersonic projectile into loose, dry quartz creates such and such craters and trenches, then so would a sub-sonic warhead into wet topsoil. Why did you move the goal posts?
I asked you to provide reasons for why should believe your bare-assed assertions that these very different scenarios should show the same result!

 

[tsig]

Why would I be banned? For not conforming?

You do need to conform to the MA.

 

[tsig]

The oblique trajectories of the projectiles can be calculated from the shape of the crater.



Missles do that.





Missiles do that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJi2K8mKTRM

Sleds made the crater?

The sled test was conducted Jan. 24 at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., using an inert warhead and an instrumented fuze. The purpose was to collect full-scale test data to validate the models used for predicting the performance of the warhead casing and fuze.

Not quite a missile.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The NWO secret cabal still want to hear your pitch for why they shouldn't just crash a 757 into a field.

They are puzzled why Agent 451 believes it is imperative to fire unproven missiles into the field to create a gash like the real plane would make.

They are alarmed to read in the spec for the missiles how low the probability is that they can achieve a neat, symmetrical impact pattern.

They are not at all happy at the scale and expense of the operation needed to seed the crash site with debris from a genuine crash site and to 'clear up' air traffic control, airport workers, eyewitnesses, cellphone companies etc.

Number One strokes Mr Bigglesworth. He wants you to throw him a frikkin' bone. All he wants to do is crash a frikkin' plane, and you're giving him this BS. Why are you so stuck on this insane missile scheme?

His finger strokes the button.

 

[dafydd]

The NWO secret cabal still want to hear your pitch for why they shouldn't just crash a 757 into a field.

That would have been the sensible thing to do. The NWO are not mentally challenged truthers.

 

[yankee451]

The highlighted part - you know this ... how?

And which part of your post addresses the math I provided?
Remember, YOU posted images of craters in dry, loose quartz made by small hypersonic projectiles, and implied that, if a small, hypersonic projectile into loose, dry quartz creates such and such craters and trenches, then so would a sub-sonic warhead into wet topsoil. Why did you move the goal posts?
I asked you to provide reasons for why should believe your bare-assed assertions that these very different scenarios should show the same result!

I am trying to prove it. You are throwing a tempertantrum.

"goal posts"

What a laugh.

 

[dafydd]

I am trying to prove it. .

Good luck with that. Get back to us when you have some proof.

 

[yankee451]

Okay so we all this information about the crater. We can use the surrounding trees and road for scale, and you who insist a plane burrowed into the ground should be able to demonstrate how the wings of the 757 fit in this gash. I am working on the math for the missiles, but we went to war over your plane theory so I'm surprised none of you have your figures ready to go. Surely these data are available after the detailed investigation of the crash? Didn't they measure the wingspan of the crater to ensure it fit the wingspan of the jet? If they didn't, and you didn't, why not?