How much time do we really have?

[tsig]

OK, so the only portion of the OP which does not seem to have been thoroughly vetted thus far is the "The city of Iram (Lost city) which is mentioned in the Quran and was thought to be a myth was rediscovered around this time." [Quran 89:6-8]
6] Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with 'Aad -
7] [With] Iram - who had lofty pillars,
8] The likes of whom had never been created in the land?

In the debate titled "Christianity or Islam, Which is True", (Nadir Ahmed vs David Wood). Nadir mentions the city of Iram, and how it was similar to the cities Sodom and Gomorrah which were thought by many to have been incorrect or just made up.

Similar to the discovery of the name Haman in relation to the Pharaohs of Egypt due to the discovery of the Rosetta stone, The city of Iram was only recently disclosed to the world (outside of the Surah 89 mention within the Quran), with the discovery of the city of Ebla (1964) as well as the discovery of the Ebla tablets which date back to the period between ca. 2500 BC and the destruction of the city ca. 2250 BC.

The December issue of National Geographic from 1978, pgs 735-736 states the following: "Damascus and Gaza are mentioned, as well as two of the Biblical cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. Also included is Iram, an obscure city referred to in Sura 89 of the Koran."

Now once again we are left with the question, Where did Muhammad get this information? Information which was previously lost to the world and only recently rediscovered. Or does this represent another so called "coincidence"?

Iram mentioned in the Ebla Tablets

Why does Allah choose to prove the truth of his book by obscure references to meaningless cities?

 

[tsig]

Pretty astounding if you ask me, also a little risky. If the city had disappeared so many millenniums prior it could very well have just been a myth which was being passed around. Imagine if Muhammad had heard some people talking about a place which was completely made up and then he accidentally inserted the name for such a place into the Quran?

Assuming that talk of the city actually was in circulation during the time of Muhammad, it could be still be argued that he would of had only a 50/50 chance. But why gamble the integrity of entire Quran on a single reference to an obscure and forgotten city? Unless it wasn't really a gamble, but he somehow knew this reference to have been correct.

Yes, thanks that was "Ebla" as I had originally written, and not "Elba".

I thought Allah wrote the Koran and that it existed in heaven before the foundation of the world.

 

[TimCallahan]

Pretty astounding if you ask me, also a little risky. If the city had disappeared so many millenniums prior it could very well have just been a myth which was being passed around. Imagine if Muhammad had heard some people talking about a place which was completely made up and then he accidentally inserted the name for such a place into the Quran?

Assuming that talk of the city actually was in circulation during the time of Muhammad, it could be still be argued that he would of had only a 50/50 chance. But why gamble the integrity of entire Quran on a single reference to an obscure and forgotten city? Unless it wasn't really a gamble, but he somehow knew this reference to have been correct.

Yes, thanks that was "Ebla" as I had originally written, and not "Elba".

Of course, Surah 18 refers to a metal wall Dhu'l-Qarnayn erected in a mountain pass to keep Gog and Magog out of the civilized lands. It's still supposed to be standing. Would you like to hazard a guess as to where it is? This barrier has a striking resemblance to the iron barrier or gate supposedly set up in a pass in the Caucasus Mountains by Alexander the Great. He is often depicted on coins as having ram's horns.

What all this means is that these legends were floating around. Muhammad used at least two of them, Dhu'l-Qarnayn's wall and the city of Iram. Lost cities in Arabia are spoken of by ancient geographers, and the metal barrier in the mountain pass set up by Alexander the Great, the probable source of Dhu'l-Qarnayn, was alluded to by Josephus in his Wars of the Jews. There's nothing either risky or supernatural about Muhammad using these stories in the Qur'an.

 

[mikeb768]

Of course, Surah 18 refers to a metal wall Dhu'l-Qarnayn erected in a mountain pass to keep Gog and Magog out of the civilized lands. It's still supposed to be standing. Would you like to hazard a guess as to where it is? This barrier has a striking resemblance to the iron barrier or gate supposedly set up in a pass in the Caucasus Mountains by Alexander the Great. He is often depicted on coins as having ram's horns.

What all this means is that these legends were floating around. Muhammad used at least two of them, Dhu'l-Qarnayn's wall and the city of Iram. Lost cities in Arabia are spoken of by ancient geographers, and the metal barrier in the mountain pass set up by Alexander the Great, the probable source of Dhu'l-Qarnayn, was alluded to by Josephus in his Wars of the Jews. There's nothing either risky or supernatural about Muhammad using these stories in the Qur'an.

You already asked me if I knew where the entry point to Gog and Magog was earlier. How would I know such a thing? These tribes of people who are understood to be living underground and will only be released during the period after Jesus has made his return. If you are still alive during the period when Jesus returns and just after he kills the Anti Christ then the mentioned tribes of Gog and Magog do not appear, then you can mark this down as a false prediction. Time period and events for the appearance of Gog and Magog. But why wait for such, when so many of the other signs have already occurred? And quite consistently I might add.

Yes if any person/author decided to reference a city has not been around for 3000 years, a city for which no documentation or record existed, and was not be found on any maps at the time, doing so would be quite risky. Of course the risk is that the book claims to be the word of God, but somehow managed to include obviously false and incorrect references.

Do you know of another book which contains so many correct predictions (as we have shown) other than the Quran?

 

[Craig B]

Yes if any person/author decided to reference a city has not been around for 3000 years, a city for which no documentation or record existed, and was not be found on any maps at the time, doing so would be quite risky. Of course the risk is that the book claims to be the word of God, but somehow managed to include obviously false and incorrect references.

I think the following is probably incorrect.[/quote]Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.[/quote]

 

[mikeb768]

I think the following is probably incorrect. "Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people."

This is clearly a metaphor. I addressed this topic a while back in the following post. Link

...(snip)...
[Quran 18:86] is not meant to be taken literally.
85] One (such) way he followed,
86] Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

If you keep reading the surah, it later states the following:
89] Then followed he (another) way,
90] Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

The people who construct these extremely weak arguments know full well that they do not hold weight. But they also know that most people are just to lazy to read, which allows these things to remain in circulation. May God guide all of those who are sincere, both in this life and the next, Peace.

You never wondered why they don't bother to included the 2nd bit, "rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people", it sounds even more ridiculous than the first.

The sun rises on people, like off the tops of their heads? Or off of their backs? The reason why they never include the second part, is because it exposes the fact that both parts were obviously not meant literally.

 

[Donn]

Yes if any person/author decided to reference a city has not been around for 3000 years, a city for which no documentation or record existed, and was not be found on any maps at the time, doing so would be quite risky. Of course the risk is that the book claims to be the word of God, but somehow managed to include obviously false and incorrect references.

Does this mean you are taking the Iram thing off your list of predictions too?

Do you know of another book which contains so many correct predictions (as we have shown) other than the Quran?

For post-hoc meanings of "predictions", then yes, the bible and for the same reasons.

I think many science fiction books over the last hundred years have had more successful prediction that the Quran. Just read Asimov or Clarke.

 

[tsig]

You already asked me if I knew where the entry point to Gog and Magog was earlier. How would I know such a thing? These tribes of people who are understood to be living underground and will only be released during the period after Jesus has made his return. If you are still alive during the period when Jesus returns and just after he kills the Anti Christ then the mentioned tribes of Gog and Magog do not appear, then you can mark this down as a false prediction. Time period and events for the appearance of Gog and Magog. But why wait for such, when so many of the other signs have already occurred? And quite consistently I might add.

Yes if any person/author decided to reference a city has not been around for 3000 years, a city for which no documentation or record existed, and was not be found on any maps at the time, doing so would be quite risky. Of course the risk is that the book claims to be the word of God, but somehow managed to include obviously false and incorrect references.

Do you know of another book which contains so many correct predictions (as we have shown) other than the Quran?

God deliberately put in that reference in order to prove his book?

 

[TimCallahan]

You already asked me if I knew where the entry point to Gog and Magog was earlier. How would I know such a thing? These tribes of people who are understood to be living underground and will only be released during the period after Jesus has made his return. If you are still alive during the period when Jesus returns and just after he kills the Anti Christ then the mentioned tribes of Gog and Magog do not appear, then you can mark this down as a false prediction. Time period and events for the appearance of Gog and Magog. But why wait for such, when so many of the other signs have already occurred? And quite consistently I might add.

So, a barrier in a mountain pass has become, by way of arbitrary interpretation, a seal keeping these people living underground. So, how are they surviving under the earth? Why haven't they been recorded seismically? Why haven't such activities as mining, oil and gas drilling, fracking and even underground nuclear tests resulted in their detection?

Yes if any person/author decided to reference a city has not been around for 3000 years, a city for which no documentation or record existed, and was not be found on any maps at the time, doing so would be quite risky. Of course the risk is that the book claims to be the word of God, but somehow managed to include obviously false and incorrect references.

I've already pointed out to you that, according to the earliest biography of Muhammad, that his tribe, the Qaraysh, already had a tradition of legends about the lost city of Iram. I've further pointed out that many of the ancient Greek geographers referred to a lost city, by various other names, that was located in the southern Arabian region of Hadramaut. Muhammad did not originate this story. The Qur'an is not its only source for thousands of years

Do you know of another book which contains so many correct predictions (as we have shown) other than the Quran?

Actually, you haven't shown that these are correct predictions:

1) For example, Hemen-hotep isn't the same a Haman.

2) Q 17:104 has been interpreted and translated in so many ways, and is way too vague to be a prediction of the modern state of Israel.

3) These many interpretations and varied translations show that God has indeed not protected the Quran from changes/corruption.

4) Islam is not the dominant religion in the world. Christianity is. According to this site Christians number 2.1 billion, while Muslims number 1.6 billion. By percentage, 31.3% of the people in the world are Christian, while 23.2% are Muslim.

 

[mikeb768]

Does this mean you are taking the Iram thing off your list of predictions too?


For post-hoc meanings of "predictions", then yes, the bible and for the same reasons.

I think many science fiction books over the last hundred years have had more successful prediction that the Quran. Just read Asimov or Clarke.

Which of the things mentioned in the OP do you consider to be "post-hoc predictions"?

So you believe that there are many books contain a similar number of accurate predictions, but then you don't bother to name even one. Strange (but not surprising), your position seems to any basis for support.

 

[tsig]

Which of the things mentioned in the OP do you consider to be "post-hoc predictions"?

So you believe that there are many books contain a similar number of accurate predictions, but then you don't bother to name even one. Strange (but not surprising), your position seems to any basis for support.

Why would god make predictions? Doesn't everything work out like he wants it to?

 

[mikeb768]

So, a barrier in a mountain pass has become, by way of arbitrary interpretation, a seal keeping these people living underground. So, how are they surviving under the earth? Why haven't they been recorded seismically? Why haven't such activities as mining, oil and gas drilling, fracking and even underground nuclear tests resulted in their detection?



I've already pointed out to you that, according to the earliest biography of Muhammad, that his tribe, the Qaraysh, already had a tradition of legends about the lost city of Iram. I've further pointed out that many of the ancient Greek geographers referred to a lost city, by various other names, that was located in the southern Arabian region of Hadramaut. Muhammad did not originate this story. The Qur'an is not its only source for thousands of years



Actually, you haven't shown that these are correct predictions:

1) For example, Hemen-hotep isn't the same a Haman.

2) Q 17:104 has been interpreted and translated in so many ways, and is way too vague to be a prediction of the modern state of Israel.

3) These many interpretations and varied translations show that God has indeed not protected the Quran from changes/corruption.

4) Islam is not the dominant religion in the world. Christianity is. According to this site Christians number 2.1 billion, while Muslims number 1.6 billion. By percentage, 31.3% of the people in the world are Christian, while 23.2% are Muslim.

Why do you continue to try and argue that including a rumor of a city which existed 3000 years earlier, as something not risky. If I was writing a book and someone mentioned to me a location that was said to have existed 30 years prior, but it was not found on any maps, or referenced in any known text, but only a story which was in circulation among people of the time. Then if I chose to include such material in my book as FACT, this would no doubt be quite risky.

But you would argue that including a city which disappeared 3000 years ago (100 x 30), as not risky? Your position is irrational, and clearly a difficult one to uphold in the face of reason.

1) HMN found in the Quran = HMN found on ancient Egyptian artifact (Clearly explained the following two posts #1, #2)

2) [Quran 17:104] This portion may benefit from the input of native Arabic speakers and/or someone with knowledge of Arabic word etymology, although I think that currently available translations seem to show a consensus.


3) Translations/interpretations of an original text do not equal changed original text (logical fallacy)

4) The article which I linked in the OP is from the Vatican Newspaper in Vatican City, which stated "For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us" Monsignor Vittorio Formenti said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano. [Link] So Christians are basically telling us that they no longer make up the largest religious group, but you (an atheist) are trying to tell the Christians that they are the largest group. How does that make any sense?

Largest single group is Sunni Islam with 1.62 billion as of 2010, yes I understand that if we combine all 41,000 of the different denominations of Christianity they would still be #1, but I am talking about the single largest group. And I'm going to assume that you agree with the remaining points which have been mentioned in the OP?

 

[Brainache]

Why do you continue to try and argue that including a rumor of a city which existed 3000 years earlier, as something not risky. If I was writing a book and someone mentioned to me a location that was said to have existed 30 years prior, but it was not found on any maps, or referenced in any known text, but only a story which was in circulation among people of the time. Then if I chose to include such material in my book as FACT, this would no doubt be quite risky.

But you would argue that including a city which disappeared 3000 years ago (100 x 30), as not risky? Your position is irrational, and clearly a difficult one to uphold in the face of reason.

1) HMN found in the Quran = HMN found on ancient Egyptian artifact (Clearly explained the following two posts #1, #2)

2) [Quran 17:104] This portion may benefit from the input of native Arabic speakers and/or someone with knowledge of Arabic word etymology, although I think that currently available translations seem to show a consensus.
[qimg]http://s21.postimg.org/dtipman3n/quran.jpg[/qimg]

3) Translations/interpretations of an original text do not equal changed original text (logical fallacy)

4) The article which I linked in the OP is from the Vatican Newspaper in Vatican City, which stated "For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us" Monsignor Vittorio Formenti said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano. [Link] So Christians are basically telling us that they no longer make up the largest religious group, but you (an atheist) are trying to tell the Christians that they are the largest group. How does that make any sense?

Largest single group is Sunni Islam with 1.62 billion as of 2010, yes I understand that if we combine all 41,000 of the different denominations of Christianity they would still be #1, but I am talking about the single largest group. And I'm going to assume that you agree with the remaining points which have been mentioned in the OP?

Even if any of this is true, which it isn't, what difference does it make to know about it?

God, according to your book, will do what he wants, when he wants and the concerns of humans are of no account to him.

Not only that, but he knows we don't believe it and we will never believe it, because it is stupid.

So, why are you here wasting your time, when you could have your face planted on a rug somewhere begging for mercy from the invisible sky-tyrant?

 

[mikeb768]

Even if any of this is true, which it isn't, what difference does it make to know about it?

God, according to your book, will do what he wants, when he wants and the concerns of humans are of no account to him.

Not only that, but he knows we don't believe it and we will never believe it, because it is stupid.

So, why are you here wasting your time, when you could have your face planted on a rug somewhere begging for mercy from the invisible sky-tyrant?

[Quran 2:164] "...indeed are Signs for a people that are wise."

[Quran 31:2-3] "These are verses of the wise Book, A Guide and a Mercy to the Doers of Good,-"

If this stuff does not mean anything to you, then maybe it was not meant for you.

 

[Brainache]

[Quran 2:164] "...indeed are Signs for a people that are wise."

[Quran 31:2-3] "These are verses of the wise Book, A Guide and a Mercy to the Doers of Good,-"

If this stuff does not mean anything to you, then maybe it was not meant for you.

Well, it would say that, wouldn't it? It wouldn't have many followers if it gave the game away to the rubes by being honest:

"...indeed these signs are made up to fool the gullible."

"These are the verses of the foolish book, a guide and a club to the ones who claim false authority over ignorant mobs..."

Honesty won't get you very far with religion, so it doesn't surprise me that the Quran is as jam-packed with BS as every other "Holy Book".

People lie Mike. Sorry to have to break it to you like that, but 7th century Arabs did not have a hotline to the creator of the Universe.

What they had was fanatical devotion to old stories, just like some people do today. It is even sillier when people do it nowadays though, they don't have the excuse of 7th century ignorance.

 

[mikeb768]

Some people are actually immune to good advice.

So which of the things mentioned in the OP are "lies" as you claim? And are you familiar with the term "belie".

 

[Brainache]

Some people are actually immune to good advice.

So which of the things mentioned in the OP are "lies" as you claim? And are you familiar with the term "belie".

OK. Let's take a look:

We live in very interesting times where we are able to sit back and watch while so many scientific facts which were mentioned in the Quran (over 1400 years ago) are finally coming into the light. Another interesting realm where the Quran manages to provide insight are the prophecies and historical references which are made therein. The Quran contains a number of different prophecies (most of which have already taken place).

The lie is in the idea that the Quran is somehow magical. It is an old book.

The Quran correctly predicted that the Romans would in a few years time defeat the Persians.
[Quran 30:2-4] Link

Quran correctly predicted that Abu Lahab a staunch enemy of Islam would die as a disbeliever.
[Quran 111:1-5] *Critics may make the claim that this is not hard thing to predict, although Abu Sufyan another well known enemy of Islam later accepts Islam. Link1, Link2

Quran correctly predicted that the Muslims would be able to reenter the Sacred Mosque (Mecca).
[Quran 48:27] Link

Quran correctly identifies a close ally of the Egyptian Pharaoh during the time of Moses, by the name of Haman.
[Quran 28:6, 8, 38; 29:39; 40:24, 36] Link

Quran correctly predicted the Jewish people would be gathered together from among various nations, such as in the creation of state of Israel.
[Quran 17:104] Link

Quran states that God would preserve the Pharaoh who lived during the time of Moses as a sign for later generations.
[Quran 10:90-92] Link1, Link2

The city of Iram (Lost city) which is mentioned in the Quran and was thought to be a myth was rediscovered around this time.
[Quran 89:6-8] Link

In the Quran God promises to protect the Quran from changes/corruption.
[Quran 15:9] *Muslims are in agreement regarding the integrity of the text. Link1, Link2

In the Quran God promises to make Islam the Dominant religion in the World (despite the polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers being averse to this).
[Quran 61:9] *Suni Islam is understood to have between 1.2 to 1.4 billion followers (2006), Surpassing Roman Catholicism as the world's largest religion around the time of 2006. Link

So far the only prophecy which seems to have not yet occurred (before what are considered to be the “Major Signs/Events”), seems to be discovery of the exact location where Noah's Ark came to rest. This is despite countless expeditions and even recent claims.

In the Quran God tells us he has left the Ark of Noah “as a sign” for those who choose to accept his advice/warnings.
[Quran 54:13-15; 11:44]

The Return of Jesus [Also not yet occurred, although this is event is said to occur as one of the Major Signs]
In the Quran God plainly states that Jesus was not killed or crucified, but God lifted him up, and that he will be sent back before the comes to an end as a sign for those who disbelieve.
[Quran 4:156-158; 43:61]

[qimg]http://s8.postimg.org/i8qzfh6sx/Islamic_End_Times_Timeline_2014.jpg[/qimg]
[Islamic Eschatology Timeline]

Some Jews believe that the year 2239 represents the “latest time for the initiation of the Messianic Age”, from my understanding they base this idea off of “the Hebrew year 6000”. Although I would be hesitant to place a specific time or year on the arrival of the Messiah, is it fair to say that 9 out of 10, or 90% of the prophecies and historical references which the Quran mentions will take place, have already taken place or been confirmed (not Including the Major Signs)?

Please take a look at the timeline image which has been included. I wasn't able to find a decent one online, so I just put one together myself. If you notice something which needs correcting please just mention it in the thread and I will take a look when I get the chance. Also a great lecture which may help to provide some insight into the topic is "The Return of Jesus Christ" by Kamal El-Mekki.

Included for Context - Minor Signs of "Yawm al-Qiyāmah" (The End of The World), Major Signs of "Yawm al-Qiyāmah" (The End of The World)

So what? Why do you think people interpreting an old story as predicting some mundane development means it was dictated by God?

People have lied about this, other people believed them and passed it on as true. You are at the end of this particular chain of BS, you don't have to believe this silly superstitious nonsense any more. Free yourself.

 

[TimCallahan]

Why do you continue to try and argue that including a rumor of a city which existed 3000 years earlier, as something not risky. If I was writing a book and someone mentioned to me a location that was said to have existed 30 years prior, but it was not found on any maps, or referenced in any known text, but only a story which was in circulation among people of the time. Then if I chose to include such material in my book as FACT, this would no doubt be quite risky.

But you would argue that including a city which disappeared 3000 years ago (100 x 30), as not risky? Your position is irrational, and clearly a difficult one to uphold in the face of reason.

Okay, let's go through it one last time. According to the earliest biography of Muhammad, written about 100 years after his death, The Qaraysh, Muhammad's tribe, were telling the story, one of many, of a lost city variously called Iram, Ubar etc. Muhammad, in saying its destruction was divinelly ordained wasn't taking any more risk that anyone else referring to a legendary lost city - such as, for example, Sodom and Gomorrah

1) HMN found in the Quran = HMN found on ancient Egyptian artifact (Clearly explained the following two posts #1, #2)

We've beaten this one to death. One last time: Hemen-hotep is NOT the same as the Haman of the Qur'an.

2) [Quran 17:104] This portion may benefit from the input of native Arabic speakers and/or someone with knowledge of Arabic word etymology, although I think that currently available translations seem to show a consensus.
[qimg]http://s21.postimg.org/dtipman3n/quran.jpg[/qimg]

We've also beaten this one to death. We have a number of translations showing how vaguely worded the verses are that they can be so variously translated. One last time: This doesn't hold up as a prophecy.

3) Translations/interpretations of an original text do not equal changed original text (logical fallacy)

Given the varied translations of Q 17:104, it would seem that the original is so vague as to be interpreted in many ways. If the original text is that vague, what difference does it make what it said? BTW, isn't it true that one of the earliest Califs, Abu Bakr, and his successors, Umar and Uthman, collected all the variations of of the Qur'an that were floating about and destroyed all but one version? That's a human action, not divine fiat.

4) The article which I linked in the OP is from the Vatican Newspaper in Vatican City, which stated "For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us" Monsignor Vittorio Formenti said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano. [Link] So Christians are basically telling us that they no longer make up the largest religious group, but you (an atheist) are trying to tell the Christians that they are the largest group. How does that make any sense?

Largest single group is Sunni Islam with 1.62 billion as of 2010, yes I understand that if we combine all 41,000 of the different denominations of Christianity they would still be #1, but I am talking about the single largest group.

Once again: That there are more Sunni Muslims than there are Roman Catholics doesn't mean there are more Muslims than Christians. You're flat out wrong asserting that Islam is the world's dominant religion - in spite ofthe fact that in Muslim countries converts from Islam to Christianity are at risk of being beheaded. Your continued conflation of Roman Catholicism with all of Christianity is dishonest.

And I'm going to assume that you agree with the remaining points which have been mentioned in the OP?

No, you may NOT assume that I agree with the remaining points of the OP. I've been quite plain about my many disagreements with the OP. If you make such an assumption you are being dishonest.

 

[mikeb768]

OK. Let's take a look:

The lie is in the idea that the Quran is somehow magical. It is an old book.

So what? Why do you think people interpreting an old story as predicting some mundane development means it was dictated by God?

People have lied about this, other people believed them and passed it on as true. You are at the end of this particular chain of BS, you don't have to believe this silly superstitious nonsense any more. Free yourself.

All you did was copy and past the OP? And "Free myself"? Why would I attempt to free myself from the truth. The fact that you claim the things mentioned in the OP as being dishonest but when asked to further clarify, you are then unable to support your claims shows your dishonesty.

Regarding the arguments of TimCallahan, they are extremely weak, a mix of logical fallacies and misrepresentation (writing of Egyptian names with vowels despite the vowels not actually being present, and telling Christians they are still #1, when they are the ones telling us that they are #2). These things have all been explained multiple times, and are not even worth readdressing.

Even the reference to Iram was recorded (in a hadith) after the time during which Muhammad lived. This is something which does not support the claim that a city by this name as something which was well know before his time. And the claim of a Greek reference, but then failing to provide a link to such information so that we can see for ourselves?

 

[Brainache]

All you did was copy and past the OP? And "Free myself"? Why would I attempt to free myself from the truth. The fact that you claim the things mentioned in the OP as being dishonest but when asked to further clarify, you are then unable to support your claims, shows your dishonesty.

Regarding the arguments of TimCallahan, they are extremely weak, a mix of logical fallacies and misrepresentation (writing of Egyptian names with vowels despite the vowels not actually being present, and telling Christians they are still #1, when they are the ones telling us that they are #2). These things have all been explained multiple times, and are not even worth readdressing.

Even the reference to Iram was recorded (in a hadith) after the time during which Muhammad lived. This is something which does not support the claim that a city by this name as something which was well know before his time. And the claim of a Greek reference, but then fails to provide us with a link to such information so that we can see for ourselves?

So you actually really truly believe that Muhammad was in communication with an Angel who told him all this stuff that no one had heard of before? In spite of the fact that he was obviously repeating his tribal oral traditions?

You truly believe that those ambiguous passages were predictions?

You really have fallen for a load of old tosh, haven't you? Don't expect me to believe this rubbish, it's about as plausible as the Tooth Fairy.

Why on earth would you expect anyone to believe this stuff as an adult? I can understand how children can be fooled into it by Authority, but mature adults generally have more sense than that.