How much time do we really have?

[Brainache]

No they didn't. Muslims in Palestine and world wide still want to drive all Jews in Israel into the sea. Even though muslims were only established in year 600, Jews had lived in Israel for centuries before that and are entitled to the land. Islam from a few followers of Mohammed in Mecca have now control of a third of the planet

You haven't studied a lot of History, have you MsTricky?

For most of the History of Palestine, Jews and Muslims lived side by side fairly peacefully. The recent troubles mostly started after WWII when Israel was imposed on the Palestinians.

But that is a big derail that I personally do not want to get caught up in.

 

[mstricky]

You haven't studied a lot of History, have you MsTricky?

For most of the History of Palestine, Jews and Muslims lived side by side fairly peacefully. The recent troubles mostly started after WWII when Israel was imposed on the Palestinians.

But that is a big derail that I personally do not want to get caught up in.

Israel imposed on Palestinians? You must be joking, as I said muslims only came about 600 years after Christ. Jews were already established there. Muslims weren't even invented then. They have no claim whatsoever on the land. Muslims even claim that Mohammed's soul rose to heaven in Israel even though he never went to Israel.

 

[hgus]

Israel imposed on Palestinians? You must be joking, as I said muslims only came about 600 years after Christ. Jews were already established there. Muslims weren't even invented then. They have no claim whatsoever on the land. Muslims even claim that Mohammed's soul rose to heaven in Israel even though he never went to Israel.

Possession of the land for 1400 hundred years is a pretty strong claim if you ask me. Jews lost their possession to the Romans in the second century. "According to Alexander Scholch, Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews" As late as 1931, after half a century of zionism they were still only 17 %. So I agree that Israel where impossed on the Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine

 

[mikeb768]

It definitely says Jesus wasn't killed, a man who looked like him was .... I. E... A lookalike, it says nothing about him being lifted by Allah. It says Allah caused all sinners to have black faces not that they are dark or bright, just black. Stop making excuses. It also says that Allah made all Jews into monkeys

Excuses for what exactly?

[Quran 4:157-158] Jesus raised up to God, (and will be sent back at some point in the future).

Black faces is a description of certain types of people on the Day of Judgement. If you feel more comfortable interpreting this differently then go for it.

Yep, some Jews were turned into monkeys and some into pigs, and your point is? [Quran 7:163-166], [Quran 5:60], [Quran 2:65]. Jews are not all monkeys/pigs or descendent from such, that would be quite ridiculous. Just three verses prior it says that righteous Jews will be among the people of paradise. [Quran 2:62]

 

[mikeb768]

You haven't studied a lot of History, have you MsTricky?

For most of the History of Palestine, Jews and Muslims lived side by side fairly peacefully. The recent troubles mostly started after WWII when Israel was imposed on the Palestinians.

But that is a big derail that I personally do not want to get caught up in.

Yes you are correct Brainache, although many things were already in motion prior to WWII. This is a topic which was already touched on much earlier in the thread. Post#278

 

[abaddon]

Worse case scenario: we have only a few billion years left.

How dare you even contemplate returning to the OT.

 

[Craig B]

No they didn't.

Yes they did. You are simply displaying vast ignorance.

In the disputes between Muslims and Christians throughout the bulk of the common history of the three religions, the Jews are to be found on the Muslim side. Read about the crusades or the re conquest of Spain.

Anyway the Zionist movement--a pretty recent development--came into existence in response not to Muslim persecution of Jews, but to Christian persecution of Jews.

 

[TimCallahan]

Yeah, I don't have any exact date for when the Exodus took place (I'm pretty sure that we are not the only who are eager to discover such information). I remember reading that most that the two most likely candidates for pharaoh during the time were either Ramesses II or Merneptah, but don't quote me on this.

Moses in Islam
Exodus

Herein lies one of the main problems with respect to the historicity of the Exodus narrative, regardless whether one uses either the Torah or the Qur'an as the basis for the event: This should have been such a major deal - what with Egypt being ravaged by plagues that should have devastated its population and suffering the destruction of most of its chariot corps, if not most of its entire army - that pinpointing it in history should be easy. We should find, both in the historical record and in the archaeological record, strong evidence that Egypt underwent a very bad time and that it suffered a severe decline in power as a result of the Exodus event.

What we actually find is that Ramesses II, styled "the Great," ruled 1279 - 1212, a period of 67 years. Since he ascended to the throne at the age of 25, he lived a phenomenal 92 years. That's impressive even today. It simply doesn't square with a pharaoh who was drowned in the Red Sea. During Ramesses' reign, Egypt was at the height of its power. Thus, the Exodus event is highly unlikely to have taken place during his reign.

Since, in his victory stele, Merneptah (reigned 1212 - 1202) identifies Israel as a people already living in Canaan at the time he led an expedition there to enforce Egyptian hegemony, any Exodus event would have to have already happened. Egyptian power was beginning to decline at that time, and Merneptah had to fend off an attack on Egypt by a confederacy of nations, popularly called the "Peoples of the Sea," as well as leading his expedition into Canaan. However, had the Exodus event taken place by this time, we have to wonder why the Book of Judges doesn't mention either Merneptah's expedition or the later garrisoning of Canaan by Ramesses III (1182 - 1151).

We can't even attribute the decline in Egyptian power after Ramesses II to any Exodus event, because that decline was part of the general collapse of the civilized kingdoms of the eastern Mediterranean and the Near East that took place at the end of the Bronze Age, what historians refer to as "the Catastrophe." Not only did Egypt suffer a decline of power then, so did Assyria. The Hittite Empire collapsed and the cities of Mycenaean Greece were all sacked. This also happened to Troy and, IIRC, Ugarit.

The failure of either Ramesses II or Merneptah to fit the Exodus narrative has led some of those trying to support its historicity, to place the event in the 1400s, rather than the 1200s BCE. However, such a date would be fatal to your assertion that the door stop belonging to Hemen-hetep was actually evidence for the Haman of the Qur'an being the head stone mason under the pharaoh of the Exodus, since the door stop is dated not earlier than the 19th. and not later than the 20th. dynasty.

 

[mikeb768]

Herein lies one of the main problems with respect to the historicity of the Exodus narrative, regardless whether one uses either the Torah or the Qur'an as the basis for the event: This should have been such a major deal - what with Egypt being ravaged by plagues that should have devastated its population and suffering the destruction of most of its chariot corps, if not most of its entire army - that pinpointing it in history should be easy. We should find, both in the historical record and in the archaeological record, strong evidence that Egypt underwent a very bad time and that it suffered a severe decline in power as a result of the Exodus event.

What we actually find is that Ramesses II, styled "the Great," ruled 1279 - 1212, a period of 67 years. Since he ascended to the throne at the age of 25, he lived a phenomenal 92 years. That's impressive even today. It simply doesn't square with a pharaoh who was drowned in the Red Sea. During Ramesses' reign, Egypt was at the height of its power. Thus, the Exodus event is highly unlikely to have taken place during his reign.

Since, in his victory stele, Merneptah (reigned 1212 - 1202) identifies Israel as a people already living in Canaan at the time he led an expedition there to enforce Egyptian hegemony, any Exodus event would have to have already happened. Egyptian power was beginning to decline at that time, and Merneptah had to fend off an attack on Egypt by a confederacy of nations, popularly called the "Peoples of the Sea," as well as leading his expedition into Canaan. However, had the Exodus event taken place by this time, we have to wonder why the Book of Judges doesn't mention either Merneptah's expedition or the later garrisoning of Canaan by Ramesses III (1182 - 1151).

We can't even attribute the decline in Egyptian power after Ramesses II to any Exodus event, because that decline was part of the general collapse of the civilized kingdoms of the eastern Mediterranean and the Near East that took place at the end of the Bronze Age, what historians refer to as "the Catastrophe." Not only did Egypt suffer a decline of power then, so did Assyria. The Hittite Empire collapsed and the cities of Mycenaean Greece were all sacked. This also happened to Troy and, IIRC, Ugarit.

The failure of either Ramesses II or Merneptah to fit the Exodus narrative has led some of those trying to support its historicity, to place the event in the 1400s, rather than the 1200s BCE. However, such a date would be fatal to your assertion that the door stop belonging to Hemen-hetep was actually evidence for the Haman of the Qur'an being the head stone mason under the pharaoh of the Exodus, since the door stop is dated not earlier than the 19th. and not later than the 20th. dynasty.

You do realize that both Ramesses II and Merneptah were both part of the Nineteenth Dynasty. So the doorjamb with the name "HMN" which has been dated as "not earlier than the 19th and not later than the 20th" only helps to further corroborate what is written in the Quran regarding Moses and the Pharaoh. Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt

Regarding the Jewish Exodus we are left with only a few rational options:

A) Jewish people invented this Exodus from Egypt lie/hoax and the Passover as a way to make other people/nations feel sorry for them?

B) Jewish people invented this Exodus from Egypt lie/hoax and the Passover as a way so that they could feel sorry for themselves (self pity).

C) The Passover was created to commemorate of the liberation of the Jewish people over 3,300 years ago by God from slavery in ancient Egypt that was ruled by the Pharaohs, and their birth as a nation under the leadership of Moses.

Jewish Passover Explained 1, 2, 3

 

[TimCallahan]

You do realize that both Ramesses II and Merneptah were both part of the Nineteenth Dynasty. So the doorjamb with the name "HMN" which has been dated as "not earlier than the 19th and not later than the 20th" only helps to further corroborate what is written in the Quran regarding Moses and the Pharaoh. Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt

Regarding the Jewish Exodus we are left with only a few rational options:

A) Jewish people invented this Exodus from Egypt lie/hoax and the Passover as a way to make other people/nations feel sorry for them?

B) Jewish people invented this Exodus from Egypt lie/hoax and the Passover as a way so that they could feel sorry for themselves (self pity).

C) The Passover was created to commemorate of the liberation of the Jewish people over 3,300 years ago by God from slavery in ancient Egypt that was ruled by the Pharaohs, and their birth as a nation under the leadership of Moses.

Jewish Passover Explained 1, 2, 3

Or, it's possible there was a very minor Exodus incident that involve the escape of a band of slaves. According to the E Document, the mMiracle at the Sea only consisted of God making the wheels of the Egyptian chariots run heavily, i.e. the band of slaves could have escaped across a tidal flat on foot, pursued by chariots. Usually, this would spell disaster for those fleeing on foot. However, if the chariot wheel became mired in wet sand, the band of slave would escape. This would be no big deal for the Egyptians; but it would mean freedom v. slavery for the band of escaping slaves.

Or, the secession of commoners in the lowlands of Canaan, accomplished by moving into the abandoned hill country and practicing small scale animal husbandry and dry country agriculture, was the source of the story; i.e. the proto-Israelites left the tyranny of the Egyptian sponsored city states of Canaan.

One thing that is highly improbable was that a large number of Israelites left Egypt in conditions that left that country in ruins and militarily devastated, yet left no historical or archaeological record of the event.

And lets not forget that, according to the Global Egyptian Museum, which you yourself cited, the door stop belonged to Hemen-hetep, not Haman

 

[mikeb768]

Haman

Egyptian Hieroglyphs didn't indicate vowels adequately and sometimes "e" (and in a some cases "a") is put in if necessary as a default vowel. As in other languages, words in Egyptian were made up of sounds, partly of consonants and partly of vowels. But, the writing of hieroglyphs constantly ignored and omitted vowels. Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Directory

Arabic script is commonly represented by letters but short vowels and consonant length are not generally indicated in writing. The early copies of the Quran were also like this, vocalization markings were later included to avoid confusion and mispronunciation of words by non Arabic speakers. Early Quran Had No vocalization markings, Printed Copy of First Holy Quran


[HMN in the Quran]

So early in the 7th Century Muhammad (saw) revealed to us the following: "HMN" (or Haman) was a close associate to the Pharaoh during the time of Moses. Haman was also mentioned to have been involved with the construction of things from stone/baked clay.

Later in the 20th Century it was then confirmed by Egyptian Archeologists that a person by the name of "HMN" was mentioned as “the overseer of the stonemasons”, some time during the period of Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt, which just so happens to be the exact same period which both Christian and Muslim scholars understand the Pharaoh during the time of Moses to have lived.

Regarding "ḥtp" (sometimes found as "Hotep”, “Hetep”, or even “-h”). “The Egyptian word Hotep (ḥtp) translates to roughly "to be satisfied, at peace". It is regularly found in the names of ancient Egyptian figures such as Hotepsekhemwy (ḥr ḥtp-sḫm.wj "the two powers are at peace"), the first ruler of Egypt's Second Dynasty.” Other examples of the usage of “htp” are the following: Amenhotep, Sobekhotep, and Ptahhotep.

Between my earlier post on this subject and this one, I'm not quite sure how to make this subject any more clear. Now ask yourself where did Muhammad get this information? Information which was previously lost to the world and only recently rediscovered.

References:
Walter Wreszinski, Aegyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hof Museum in Wien (Egyptian Inscriptions from the K.K. Hof Museum in Vienna) (Leipzig: J C Hinrichs’sche Buchhandlung: 1906).
Hermann Ranke, Die Ägyptischen Personennamen, Verzeichnis der Namen (The Egyptian Family Names, Listing of the Names), Verlag Von J J Augustin in Glückstadt, Band I,1935, Band II, 1952.
Global Egyptian Museum

 

[MikeG]

.......some Jews were turned into monkeys and some into pigs, and your point is? [Quran 7:163-166], [Quran 5:60], [Quran 2:65]. Jews are not all monkeys/pigs or descendent from such, that would be quite ridiculous.........

Do you have some trouble with understanding the word "ridiculous"?

You are saying that it is ridiculous to suggest that ALL Jews were turned into monkeys or pigs, but accept it as perfectly normal to claim that some were.

Have you, or any other human, ever seen, or seen evidence of, any mammal turned into any other mammal?

The only place that stuff happens is in the heads of dim wits and children, story tellers and magic-believers. I question the sanity of anyone who claims any such transformations as fact.

 

[TimCallahan]

Egyptian Hieroglyphs didn't indicate vowels adequately and sometimes "e" (and in a some cases "a") is put in if necessary as a default vowel. As in other languages, words in Egyptian were made up of sounds, partly of consonants and partly of vowels. But, the writing of hieroglyphs constantly ignored and omitted vowels. Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Directory

Arabic script is commonly represented by letters but short vowels and consonant length are not generally indicated in writing. The early copies of the Quran were also like this, vocalization markings were later included to avoid confusion and mispronunciation of words by non Arabic speakers. Early Quran Had No vocalization markings, Printed Copy of First Holy Quran

[qimg]http://s30.postimg.org/f3d7saknh/Untitled.jpg[/qimg]
[HMN in the Quran]

So early in the 7th Century Muhammad (saw) revealed to us the following: "HMN" (or Haman) was a close associate to the Pharaoh during the time of Moses. Haman was also mentioned to have been involved with the construction of things from stone/baked clay.

Later in the 20th Century it was then confirmed by Egyptian Archeologists that a person by the name of "HMN" was mentioned as “the overseer of the stonemasons”, some time during the period of Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt, which just so happens to be the exact same period which both Christian and Muslim scholars understand the Pharaoh during the time of Moses to have lived.

Regarding "ḥtp" (sometimes found as "Hotep”, “Hetep”, or even “-h”). “The Egyptian word Hotep (ḥtp) translates to roughly "to be satisfied, at peace". It is regularly found in the names of ancient Egyptian figures such as Hotepsekhemwy (ḥr ḥtp-sḫm.wj "the two powers are at peace"), the first ruler of Egypt's Second Dynasty.” Other examples of the usage of “htp” are the following: Amenhotep, Sobekhotep, and Ptahhotep.

Between my earlier post on this subject and this one, I'm not quite sure how to make this subject any more clear. Now ask yourself where did Muhammad get this information? Information which was previously lost to the world and only recently rediscovered.
References:
Walter Wreszinski, Aegyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hof Museum in Wien (Egyptian Inscriptions from the K.K. Hof Museum in Vienna) (Leipzig: J C Hinrichs’sche Buchhandlung: 1906).
Hermann Ranke, Die Ägyptischen Personennamen, Verzeichnis der Namen (The Egyptian Family Names, Listing of the Names), Verlag Von J J Augustin in Glückstadt, Band I,1935, Band II, 1952.
Global Egyptian Museum

Regarding the highlighted area. This would be impressive had the Qur'an identified the man as Hemen-hotep or Haman-hotep. However, it didn't. As such, any resemblance between the Haman of the Qur'an and the historical Hemen-hotep is coincidental.

It would also have been impressive if either the Book of Exodus or the Qur'an had identified the pharaoh of the Exodus. Yet, neither did. Had that pharaoh been Ramesses II, we should not have his body. Since Ramesses II led from the front, he would have been drowned in the Red Sea along with his men. Yet, we do have the mummy of Ramesses II, a man who died in extreme old age.

Finally (and once again), there is no historical or archaeological support for the events of the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan - the plagues against Egypt including the sudden death of the flower of Egyptian youth, in a single night; the destruction of the entire Egyptian chariot corps (Ex. 14:7), which would have left the land open to invasion; the sudden destruction, in a single blitzkrieg military campaign of all the major cities of Canaan - taking place during the period of the 19th. dynasty. For that matter, there's no support for these events taking place at any other time.

 

[mikeb768]

Regarding the highlighted area. This would be impressive had the Qur'an identified the man as Hemen-hotep or Haman-hotep. However, it didn't. As such, any resemblance between the Haman of the Qur'an and the historical Hemen-hotep is coincidental.

It would also have been impressive if either the Book of Exodus or the Qur'an had identified the pharaoh of the Exodus. Yet, neither did. Had that pharaoh been Ramesses II, we should not have his body. Since Ramesses II led from the front, he would have been drowned in the Red Sea along with his men. Yet, we do have the mummy of Ramesses II, a man who died in extreme old age.

Finally (and once again), there is no historical or archaeological support for the events of the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan - the plagues against Egypt including the sudden death of the flower of Egyptian youth, in a single night; the destruction of the entire Egyptian chariot corps (Ex. 14:7), which would have left the land open to invasion; the sudden destruction, in a single blitzkrieg military campaign of all the major cities of Canaan - taking place during the period of the 19th. dynasty. For that matter, there's no support for these events taking place at any other time.

Well that's a pretty big coincidence, don't you think?

Even if had the Pharaoh in question drowned, that would not rule out the possibility that his body would have been able to be retrieved.

And in your opinion do you believe that early Jews made up the whole "Jewish Exodus from Egypt hoax/lie, and Passover holiday hoax" out of ignorance, or intentionally in order to deceive people? This may sound like a strange question, but do you also deny the Jewish Holocaust?

 

[TimCallahan]

Well that's a pretty big coincidence, don't you think?

In word, no, I don't.

Even if had the Pharaoh in question drowned, that would not rule out the possibility that his body would have been able to be retrieved.

Yet, there should be some evidence of his violent death. Consider the mummy of Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao, showing the battle wounds that killed him during the Hyksos invasion.

And in your opinion do you believe that early Jews made up the whole "Jewish Exodus from Egypt hoax/lie, and Passover holiday hoax" out of ignorance, or intentionally in order to deceive people?

Considering that the earliest documents of what eventually became the Torah only go back to ca. 800 BCE, there was plenty of time for what was perhaps a minor incident from the Egyptian point of view, ca. 1200 BCE to have grown into a major legend 400 years later. Again, the lack of physical evidence and multiple independent attestation are major problems for the historicity of the narratives of the Books of Exodus and Joshua.

This may sound like a strange question, but do you also deny the Jewish Holocaust?

No, I do not deny the Jewish Holocaust. Yes, the question is strange, also a bit insulting. That said, there is a useful lesson here. The Holocaust is one of the best attested historic events of the twentieth century and possibly of all time. Among the records of the Holocaust we have the testimony of the survivors, that of the G.I.s who liberated the death camps, plus the footage taken by U.S. forces. In addition, we have prewar statistics about the number of Jews in the various counties and the statistics on those few that were left afterward. We also have the film record of the Holocaust taken by the Nazis, including footage of bulldozers plowing stick-like bodies into mass graves. We also have the mass graves and bodies themselves. We also have, as evidence the Holocaust, the camps, the gas chambers the empty containers of hydrogen cyanide gas, etc.

In sharp contrast, we have no archaeological or historical evidence, no preserved documentation from the time of the devastation of Egypt by plagues or of the destruction of the core of the Egyptian army.

 

[mikeb768]

...(snip)...
No, actually the lost city in the desert found in modern times is the city of Ubar. There's speculation it is the same as Iram, but speculation only.
...(snip)...

OK, so the only portion of the OP which does not seem to have been thoroughly vetted thus far is the "The city of Iram (Lost city) which is mentioned in the Quran and was thought to be a myth was rediscovered around this time." [Quran 89:6-8]
6] Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with 'Aad -
7] [With] Iram - who had lofty pillars,
8] The likes of whom had never been created in the land?

In the debate titled "Christianity or Islam, Which is True", (Nadir Ahmed vs David Wood). Nadir mentions the city of Iram, and how it was similar to the cities Sodom and Gomorrah which were thought by many to have been incorrect or just made up.

Similar to the discovery of the name Haman in relation to the Pharaohs of Egypt due to the discovery of the Rosetta stone, The city of Iram was only recently disclosed to the world (outside of the Surah 89 mention within the Quran), with the discovery of the city of Ebla (1964) as well as the discovery of the Ebla tablets which date back to the period between ca. 2500 BC and the destruction of the city ca. 2250 BC.

The December issue of National Geographic from 1978, pgs 735-736 states the following: "Damascus and Gaza are mentioned, as well as two of the Biblical cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. Also included is Iram, an obscure city referred to in Sura 89 of the Koran."

Now once again we are left with the question, Where did Muhammad get this information? Information which was previously lost to the world and only recently rediscovered. Or does this represent another so called "coincidence"?

Iram mentioned in the Ebla Tablets

 

[TimCallahan]

OK, so the only portion of the OP which does not seem to have been thoroughly vetted thus far is the "The city of Iram (Lost city) which is mentioned in the Quran and was thought to be a myth was rediscovered around this time." [Quran 89:6-8]
6] Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with 'Aad -
7] [With] Iram - who had lofty pillars,
8] The likes of whom had never been created in the land?

In the debate titled "Christianity or Islam, Which is True", (Nadir Ahmed vs David Wood). Nadir mentions the city of Iram, and how it was similar to the cities Sodom and Gomorrah which were thought by many to have been incorrect or just made up.

Similar to the discovery of the name Haman in relation to the Pharaohs of Egypt due to the discovery of the Rosetta stone, The city of Iram was only recently disclosed to the world (outside of the Surah 89 mention within the Quran), with the discovery of the city of Ebla (1964) as well as the discovery of the Ebla tablets which date back to the period between ca. 2500 BC and the destruction of the city ca. 2250 BC.

The December issue of National Geographic from 1978, pgs 735-736 states the following: "Damascus and Gaza are mentioned, as well as two of the Biblical cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. Also included is Iram, an obscure city referred to in Sura 89 of the Koran."

Now once again we are left with the question, Where did Muhammad get this information? Information which was previously lost to the world and only recently rediscovered. Or does this represent another so called "coincidence"?

Iram mentioned in the Ebla Tablets

Well, according to this site Herodotus, Pliny the Elder and Strabo mentioned such cities, Ptolemy, Greek geographer of the second century BCE, showed cities that might have been the source of Ubar (the probable source of the Qur'an's Iram) on his map. So, the information was already out there long before the time of Muhammad (from the site):

Herodotus, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and other ancient authors, though not specifically mentioning Ubar, gave brief accounts of cities in southern Arabia that marketed resins from frankincense and myrrh trees. While it is certain that people of the Dhofar area grew rich trading these commodities.

Which city on Ptolemy's map was Shisur? Based on its location within the area of the Iobaritae tribal territory, we believe it is the town of Marimatha. Our excavations have shown that Shisur was a key trading center that linked Dhofar to eastern Arabia and early Mesopotamian civilizations. It was very possibly one of the cities that gave birth to the Ubar myth.

 

[mikeb768]

Well, according to this site Herodotus, Pliny the Elder and Strabo mentioned such cities, Ptolemy, Greek geographer of the second century BCE, showed cities that might have been the source of Ubar (the probable source of the Qur'an's Iram) on his map. So, the information was already out there long before the time of Muhammad (from the site):

Herodotus, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and other ancient authors, though not specifically mentioning Ubar, gave brief accounts of cities in southern Arabia that marketed resins from frankincense and myrrh trees. While it is certain that people of the Dhofar area grew rich trading these commodities.

Which city on Ptolemy's map was Shisur? Based on its location within the area of the Iobaritae tribal territory, we believe it is the town of Marimatha. Our excavations have shown that Shisur was a key trading center that linked Dhofar to eastern Arabia and early Mesopotamian civilizations. It was very possibly one of the cities that gave birth to the Ubar myth.

What is the association between the city of Iram and "Ubar"? What exactly is this "Ubar myth" which you claim, and what does it have to do with the fact that Iram does not seem to have been referenced (outside of the text of the Quran) until after the discovery of the city of Elba, and the Elba Tablets?

The People of Ad (Part 1) (Part 2). These two videos seem to associate the people of Ad (who are mentioned in the Quran) with the city of Ubar, although I still interested in finding out the connection between the two.

 

[TimCallahan]

What is the association between the city of Iram and "Ubar"? What exactly is this "Ubar myth" which you claim, and what does it have to do with the fact that Iram does not seem to have been referenced (outside of the text of the Quran) until after the discovery of the city of Elba, and the Elba Tablets?

The People of Ad (Part 1) (Part 2). These two videos seem to associate the people of Ad (who are mentioned in the Quran) with the city of Ubar, although I still interested in finding out the connection between the two.

I'm going to assume that "Elba" (hilited) is a typo and that you were not referring to that island in the Mediterranean, but rather to the city of Ebla. This was an ancient city in western Syria, in whose library of stone tablets is mentioned the city of Iram. Here is what the Qur'an says of the city of Iram (Q 89:6 - 13):

Have you considered how your Lord dealt with the people of Ad and of Iram, city of lofty pillars, whose like has never been made in any land and the tribe of Thamud who hewed into the rocks of the valley, and the mighty and powerful Pharaoh? All of them committed excesses in their lands and spread corruption there; your Lord let a scourge of punishment loose on them.

So, all we have in the Qur'an is a statement that there was a city called Iram that God punished. That doesn't sound particularly astounding, and there is no indication in the Qur'an or, to my knowledge, the Ebla tablets as to where Iram was located. This site points out, however, that the story of Iram was known among Arabic tribes before the time of Muhammad, as noted in the earliest biography of Muhammad (from the site):

'Asim b. 'Umar b. Qatada told me on the authority of some of the shaykhs of his tribe that they said that when the apostle met them he learned by inquiry that they were of the Khazraj and allies of the Jews. He invited them to sit with him and expounded to them Islam and recited the Quran to them. Now God had prepared the way for Islam in that they lived side by side with the Jews who were people of the scriptures and knowledge, while they themselves were polytheists and idolaters. They had raided them in their district and whenever bad feeling arose the Jews used to say to them, ‘A prophet will be sent soon. His day is at hand. We shall follow him and kill you by his aid as 'Ad and Iram perished.’

So, once again, this isn't an example of an astounding and inexplicable revelation, but rather deals with something that was known by various people before the time of Muhammad. Here, BTW, is the quote from the December 1978 issue of the National Geographic referring to the mention of Iram in the Ebla tablets:

The names of cities thought to have been founded much later, such as Beirut and Byblos, leap from the tablets. Damascus and Gaza are mentioned, as well as two of the Biblical cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah. Also included is lram, an obscure city referred to in Sura 89 of the Koran.

As to the actual location of Iram, this Islamic site, using extra-Qur'anic sources says it was swallowed by the sand and situates it near Hadramaut (from the site):

The man “Iram” had a city named after him, built by Shaddad, the son of ^Ad. This city was between Hadramawt and San^a’ in Yemen. The tribe of ^Ad had thirteen branches. The people of the tribe of ^Ad were very tall and strong. The tallest among them was 100 cubits in height and the shortest was 60 cubits in height (~90 feet). Shaddad established himself as king of his people and he ruled unjustly, oppressing his people. Shaddad kept conquering other countries, until he was the dominant ruler at that time, with the other kings submitting to him.

 

[mikeb768]

Pretty astounding if you ask me, also a little risky. If the city had disappeared so many millenniums prior it could very well have just been a myth which was being passed around. Imagine if Muhammad had heard some people talking about a place which was completely made up and then he accidentally inserted the name for such a place into the Quran?

Assuming that talk of the city actually was in circulation during the time of Muhammad, it could be still be argued that he would of had only a 50/50 chance. But why gamble the integrity of entire Quran on a single reference to an obscure and forgotten city? Unless it wasn't really a gamble, but he somehow knew this reference to have been correct.

Yes, thanks that was "Ebla" as I had originally written, and not "Elba".