mikeb768
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Wait a second, you are the one making the claim that this current list is deficient. Are you not?
How much time do we really have?
Wait a second, you are the one making the claim that this current list is deficient. Are you not?
Remember, I am making no claims at all.
You made the claim that your list meant something. It only means something if it isn't cherry picked on a post-hoc basis from the total list of all the predictions made in the koran. Your claim: the onus is on you.
You made the claim that your list meant something. It only means something if it isn't cherry picked on a post-hoc basis from the total list of all the predictions made in the koran. Your claim: the onus is on you.
mikeb768
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No you didn't try very hard. I'm not even sure that you bothered to read what it is that you were posting, before posting it.
In 1974 (about 30 years after the first computer) Arthur C. Clarke predicted that we would one day have online banking, and online shopping. OK, maybe you are unaware of the fact that the development of the Internet can be traced back to 1958. This is an example of Post-hoc analysis/prediction, where someone looks at how things are developing and then makes an educated guess as to how they will turn out. Quite unimpressive, unless you are an atheist.
And are you truly impressed by the statements which were made by Sci-fi author Isaac Asimov in 1964? Where he managed for 3/12 of his guesses about the future to be correct.
1. The human race would be incurably bored?
2. Gadgets would be powered by "long-lived batteries running on isotopes."
3. Fission-power plants that would energize most of the world
4. "power stations in space, collecting sunlight by means of huge parabolic focusing devices and radiating the energy thus collected to earth."
5. "Jets of compressed air will also lift land vehicles off the highways, which, among other things, will minimize paving problems...cars will be capable of crossing water on their jets, though local ordinances will discourage the practice."
6. There would be robots
7. "compressed air tubes will carry goods and materials over local stretches, and the switching devices that will place specific shipments in specific destinations will be one of the city's marvels."
8. Humans would have colonized the moon
9. "cities in the deep sea with bathyscaphe liners."
10. The area from Boston to Washington, D.C. would become one big city
11. Life expectancy would hit 85 years old in some parts of the world
12. "the world of A.D. 2014 will have few routine jobs that cannot be done better by some machine than by any human being. Mankind will therefore have become largely a race of machine tenders."
Then by the criteria which you have just established the following predictions which were made by Muhammad (saw) would also be considered quite spectacular (if not miraculous), considering the length of time before their actual occurrence, and the fact that many are much more specific.
[Islamic Eschatology Timeline] & [Minor Signs]
I revise my original assessment from 3/12 down to 2/12. Lithium ion batteries are not the same as (Radioactive) isotope batteries.
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TimCallahan
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This only works if you go out of your way to ignore the following facts:
1) The name on the door stop wasn't "Haman" or the consonants HMN; it was Hemen-hotep, or, using consonants only HMNHTP.
2) The ancient Egyptian suffix hotep means either "is pleased" or "at peace." In Egyptian names, it was often coupled with the name of a god, implying that the deity was pleased with the bearer of the name. Here are some examples: Amen-hotep (Amon is pleased [with him]); Ptah-hotep (Ptah is pleased [with him]); and Hemen-hotep (Hemen is pleased [with him]). Amon was the head of the Egyptian pantheon. Ptah was an important deity in that pantheon, a potter god who formed humans out of clay. Hemen was a more minor deity, a falcon god - and, no, I'm not saying that the owner of the doorstop was a falcon god.
3) The story in the Qur'an has an unnamed pharaoh telling Haman to build him a tower reaching to heaven so he (the pharaoh) can see Moses' god. The story shows strong signs of it being a conflation of the tower of Babel story from Genesis with the Book of Esther. This becomes more likely when we consider that in Esther, Haman has a gallows 50 cubits high built upon which to hang Mordecai (Esther 5:14). A cubit is roughly a foot and a half. So, 50 cubits high is 75 feet high.
4) The story of the Exodus cannot be made to fit either history or archaeology, particularly if you try to fit it into the 19th. dynasty, as you have an to make the pharaoh of the exodus Ramesses II.
You have failed to answer these arguments point by point. Instead, you've simply dismissed them.
By the generous and flexible standards of judgment that you've applied to claimed fulfillments of Quran predictions, these are sufficiently accurate to be called hits:
1. The human race would be incurably bored?
Many are. Passive entertainment (which, while it might be entertaining, does speak to underlying boredom and a lack of more fulfilling pursuits) predominates.
2. Gadgets would be powered by "long-lived batteries running on isotopes."
Some gadgets are, especially space probes.
3. Fission-power plants that would energize most of the world
Fission power plants exist in most parts of the world.
5. "Jets of compressed air will also lift land vehicles off the highways, which, among other things, will minimize paving problems...cars will be capable of crossing water on their jets, though local ordinances will discourage the practice."
Hovercraft.
6. There would be robots
7. "compressed air tubes will carry goods and materials over local stretches, and the switching devices that will place specific shipments in specific destinations will be one of the city's marvels."
Many of these were used for a time, over local stretches such as multi-building corporate complexes. Their routing/switching devices were sometimes impressive. ("Marvels" is subjective, of course.)
Furthermore, though the distances are too great for pneumatic tubes, the mechanical sorting and routing systems that make overnight and 2-day shipping possible truly are marvels by any standard.
11. Life expectancy would hit 85 years old in some parts of the world
Monaco, 86.5
Japan, 84.6
for women, 85 or higher in 12 countries
12. "the world of A.D. 2014 will have few routine jobs that cannot be done better by some machine than by any human being. Mankind will therefore have become largely a race of machine tenders."
Most jobs in the Western world involve operating some sort of machine or multiple machines. In many cases, computers and computerized devices and systems. Few people work with their hands or hand tools alone.
Eight out of twelve, not bad.
1. The human race would be incurably bored?
Many are. Passive entertainment (which, while it might be entertaining, does speak to underlying boredom and a lack of more fulfilling pursuits) predominates.
2. Gadgets would be powered by "long-lived batteries running on isotopes."
Some gadgets are, especially space probes.
3. Fission-power plants that would energize most of the world
Fission power plants exist in most parts of the world.
5. "Jets of compressed air will also lift land vehicles off the highways, which, among other things, will minimize paving problems...cars will be capable of crossing water on their jets, though local ordinances will discourage the practice."
Hovercraft.
6. There would be robots
7. "compressed air tubes will carry goods and materials over local stretches, and the switching devices that will place specific shipments in specific destinations will be one of the city's marvels."
Many of these were used for a time, over local stretches such as multi-building corporate complexes. Their routing/switching devices were sometimes impressive. ("Marvels" is subjective, of course.)
Furthermore, though the distances are too great for pneumatic tubes, the mechanical sorting and routing systems that make overnight and 2-day shipping possible truly are marvels by any standard.
11. Life expectancy would hit 85 years old in some parts of the world
Monaco, 86.5
Japan, 84.6
for women, 85 or higher in 12 countries
12. "the world of A.D. 2014 will have few routine jobs that cannot be done better by some machine than by any human being. Mankind will therefore have become largely a race of machine tenders."
Most jobs in the Western world involve operating some sort of machine or multiple machines. In many cases, computers and computerized devices and systems. Few people work with their hands or hand tools alone.
Eight out of twelve, not bad.
mikeb768
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Both 1 & 2, have already been addressed multiple times. #1, #2
3) You are attempting to conflate the story of Moses in the Quran, with the story of Book of Esther in the Bible, when they clearly bear no resemblance.
Moses in the Quran, Moses is referred to in the Quran more than any other prophet (his life and the surrounding events are well detailed).
Book of Ester (Plot summary), Book of Ester Complete
So based on the mention of the name "Haman" and the mention of a Tower these must be related? That is the text book definition of what it means to conflate two unrelated things.
4) And you deny portions of Jewish History, based on the assumption that the Jewish Exodus and Passover tradition are nothing more than hoaxes and lies. You place yourself at odds with the historicity of this event, something which is supported by ancient Egyptian artifacts such as the Merneptah Stele (understood to have been created around 1208 BC) which represents the first documented instance of the name "Israel" in the historical record.
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mikeb768
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Like I said "Quite unimpressive, unless you are an atheist." But I'm guessing based on your assessment, that you also accept the predictions which have been mentioned in the OP. Right?
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Donn
Philosopher
Thank you Myriad, for that elegant summary of the predictions of Sci-Fi writers! It does indeed show more promise than any religious tome.
(Hint: nothing.)
What does being an atheist have to do with that list?
(Hint: nothing.)
I'll predict a "No."
tsig
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If everyone will be presented with the evidence then why does god need messengers?
What does that have to do with me or my assessment?
Applying a same amount of flexibility, I accept most of them. I mean, the HMN reference is not really the same as HMNHTP, and the Egyptians preserving their own pharaoh as had been their custom for ages doesn't mean much; the only sign it seems to provide today is a big sign in front of a museum that there's going to be a long line. But, the pneumatic tubes thing and the hover-cars thing aren't quite spot on either. And while Islam isn't really the majority or dominant religion in the world, nuclear power isn't the largest source of power except in some countries even though it does energize much of the world. So, like I said, I'm applying a similar amount of wiggle room to both.
The ones I don't accept from the OP are the one about the one guy who wouldn't convert. It's completely unimportant. All of Clarke's predictions were about significant projects or changes, not about whether one guy would change his mind. It doesn't belong on the list.
Also, the one about the lost city is not a prediction at all. The Quran didn't predict that it would be thought a myth, and didn't predict that it would be discovered. It only mentioned it. There's no prediction there. It doesn't count.
So, leaving those two off (not scoring them as hits or misses), we have a score of 7 out of 9 from the OP list. That compares with 8 out of 12 for Clarke. In other words, the True Prophet of the Creator of the World performed a little bit better than the guy who wrote science fiction books.
However, Clarke's predictions came with a time limit by which the predicted things were predicted to happen. That's much more specific than predicting things that could happen eventually, with no time limit. So Mohammed performed a little bit better at an easier task than the guy who wrote science fiction books.
If we level that part of the playing field, and remove the time limit from Clarke's predictions, well, maybe eventually there will be a lunar colony, an undersea city, complete urbanization of the BOS-WASH corridor, or a solar power satellite. Just as maybe eventually, Noah's Ark will be discovered and Jesus will return. If any one of Clarke's happens before any more of Mohammed's, the score will be very close to tied (9/12 vs. 7/9) and if two of them happen Clarke will be in the lead.
And by the way, many years earlier, Clarke predicted long before rockets ever reached orbit that artificial satellites would be used for communications, and in 1956, still a year before Sputnik 1, he predicted satellites would be used for worldwide television broadcasting, GPS, and satellite phones. The competition grows tighter still!
Do you see the problem here? Shouldn't the divine prophecy, if it's truly divine, be clearly unequivocally absolutely not-even-close better at predictions than one human guy managed? Instead, it's so close we have to scrutinize every number to see who's really doing better. It's like God racing a 5K against the local record-holder, and winning by three meters. It doesn't make sense.
mikeb768
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The wiggle room given to Clarke is quite generous, imo (since when has a satellite been known to be a gadget). If we start to compare the additional statements which were made by Clarke, then it would only be fair to also include the statements which were made by Muhammad (saw) and are found in the Hadiths. Then to also compare for accuracy, amount of time between the prediction and fulfillment, number of failed predictions vs number of fulfilled, etc. Was Arthur Clarke known to have authored any books?
Regarding HMNHTP, Lord Emsworth posted a link earlier in the thread which points to the work of Wrezsinski as well as others on this subject, post. HMN-H is where the Museum has taken the translation "Hemen-hetep" although as stated before we know that the vowels e or a were not present. Also the hieroglyphs shown in Ranke's work are different than those depicted by Wrezsinski in his book.
hmn-h can actually be seen on the bottom left of the doorjamb, although the other mentioned references/hieroglyphs are not found (M R Kairo, M R AZ).
http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/large.aspx?img=images/KhM/AE_INV_5821.jpg
Lord Emsworth
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No, they are the same. They may be drawn better in Ranke, but that is about it. They are also the same on that doorjamb. I am not sure where you see the diffecence(s).
And with respect to the vowels ... They are actually irrelevant here.
The first problem is, that the name is hmn-h, maybe hmn-htp, or something along those lines. In any case there are five symbols. And not just three.
The second problem is, that the sequence of the three symbols hmn as they can be seen on that doorpost, just happens to be the spelling of the name of Hemen the falcon God. I can show them to you, if you want.
So, at the very least, Occam's Razor shaves away Haman as an explanation for the three hieroghlyphs hmn. Hemen, the falcon God, just requires fewer assumptions. We already have this translation (and Ranke thought so too), no need to make up another translation.
And once we factor in that we are not just dealing with hmn, but with hmn[something], then Haman falls a little short And you can take that literally, as there are two symbols unexplained. Reading the individuals name as Hemen-hotep (Hemen-is-pleased) -- or however exactly -- on the other hand does not. It is simply the better translation. And one that does require fewer assumptions.
No, the vowels do not appear to the problem. At least not, as far as I can see. (Maybe it really is a problem too. Who knows?)
The hieroglyphs in question appear twice. Bottom right and bottom left on the doorpost. (Mid-center in the picture.)
mikeb768
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Your argument starts to unravel when you insert the phrase "the falcon God" in the place of "the overseer of the stonemasons". In Ranke's work which is based off of Wrezsinski's work only the hieroglyphs depicting #25 can be found on the actual door jamb, #24 & #26 are not present. Also the usage of the term htp as referring to a god, which TimCallahan keeps trying to assert cannot be found. Although there are more than 30 examples where the term has been used in reference to actual people, shown in link #2.
HMN found in the Quran = HMN found on ancient Egyptian artifact (Clearly explained the following two posts #1, #2)
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mikeb768
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this?
tsig
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Why does god need messengers when he's perfectly capable of communicating with each of us?
devnull
Philosopher
In the 60s, my father knew a guy called Harry Potter, who had a lightning shaped scar on his forehead.
In other words, Mike, HMN = HMN in your view? So what? Even if you were right, which you're not, it's still remarkably unimpressive, and perhaps at best an interesting coincidence.
In other words, Mike, HMN = HMN in your view? So what? Even if you were right, which you're not, it's still remarkably unimpressive, and perhaps at best an interesting coincidence.
mikeb768
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You do realize that in the past God was understood to have actually spoken to individuals: Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus, Muhammad, etc. Often these individuals who had been contacted by God to help guide mankind back to God were spat on, ridiculed, attacked, and in some cases even killed. These messengers would even show the people great signs (from God) to help support their extraordinary claims.
People today often make the claim that God speaks directly to them (with absolutely zero proof/miracles,etc. to support their claims). Does anyone take such claims seriously? Not in the least. Nor should they. [Link]
The Quran is considered to be a "living miracle". There are a great number of reasons which support the fact that God's final revelation, is in fact miraculous, and was sent as a guide for all of mankind.
So are you going to sit around and wait for God to contact you directly, as in a voice inside your head? And if you did get your wish, what then?
mikeb768
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Your Dad knew the guy who was the real life inspiration behind J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter series? lol. If true, that is pretty cool.
But like I said before, the information may not actually be for you. It may just be that this is something which was meant for others. If you sincerely believe that this discussion is "remarkably unimpressive", then maybe you should find another thread? Why waste your time discussing something which has benefit or value to you?
tsig
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Why not?
Why am I or anyone else any less worthy of receiving a communication from god than Muhammad?
Did god suddenly go mute?
Great signs from god such as...........wait for it...................<fanfare>............
.........setting a bush on fire.
You start from the wrong point: the assumption that god exists, then you seek evidence to back this up. That these signs of her existence are entirely within people's own minds is merely evidence that the whole idea is delusional. So yep, your great and all powerful god, creator of the entire universe, must have a better way of communicating with his chosen species of mammal than just by giving a few people some weird dreams. And if that really is the best your god can do, then why should we bother kow-towing to something so pathetically weak as to rank alongside eating cheese before going to bed*.
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*Before anyone picks me up on this, I know it's rubbish, but it makes my point nicely.
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