How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

[Nucular]

Pakistani homeopaths:

I realise this is just another ridiculous attempt to irritate everybody in your bizarre attempt to somehow convert us all by presenting no evidence for your claims whatsoever, but anyway...

I just thought I'd try and be helpful and point out what could easily be a language barrier (but is actually, we all know, just an example of the homeopaths' sophistry and word games).

Sceptics said "okay, a 1X solution of a substance may have a physiological effect of some kind."

Homeopaths said "So you admit that homeopathy works at 1X!"

Sceptics said "No. We acknowledge that there is enough of an original substance left in a 1X solution to have a physiological effect. 'Working' implies curing, and this needs to be demonstrated separately."

Homeopaths said "You are all non-sense, we go now as MAS has ordered it - you admit it works then say it doesn't. We will return when you admit that a medicine at 1X could work."

Sceptics said " ....? "

So basically, sceptics say a 1X solution of a substance will have some kind of physiological effect if ingested, but each individual substance would need to be investigated separately to find out what type of effect - some will be poisons, some will be neutral, some may be helpful (in a Western medicine type of a way); but the other principles of homeopathy (Like Cures Like, etc.) need to be separately demonstrated.

Homeopaths wanted to skip all of these hurdles and have us 'admit' homeopathy works at 1X, which no-one here has even implied.

 

[Metullus]

The supply of idiots is inexhaustible.

True, but quality is more important than quantity, nes pas?

 

[Mouthfire]

I love how the Pakistani H'paths like to twist around everything that's been said, when it's readily apparent (and documented) that we really didn't say it.

Sigh... I guess I really shouldn't be surprised to see unscrupulous activities from this bunch. I wonder if non-Pakistani homeopaths are just as bad, or is it just isolated to this group of yahoos?

 

[Mojo]

I wonder if non-Pakistani homeopaths are just as bad, or is it just isolated to this group of yahoos?

There are a few who actually seem to be prepared to have some kind of genuine dialogue, but most of them seem to be just as evasive as MAS's mob. They just tend not to be quite so blatant.

 

[flume]

Right after BSM posted his "Yes" answer, this message was posted in otherhealth:
http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=5373&page=1&pp=10
To me it doesn't suggest lying by the original writer of the message; it suggests that either the writer did not have a good understanding of the English language or he didn't have a good understanding of the issues. If Dr. MAS got this kind of distorted information in the mountains, I can see why he might have been misinformed. On the other hand, he should have realized that the issue was too complicated to be summed up in that way.

What I am thinking now is that they can't explain their ideas in depth because their ideas have no depth. Unless someone takes the time to answer the questions, I have to conclude that we have already heard their complete arguments.

 

[Mojo]

If Dr. MAS got this kind of distorted information in the mountains ...

Well, always assuming that MAS actually is up in the mountains, and not just sat at home posting under a variety of different identities.

 

[Miss DD]

Most of the herbal product are in material doses / quantity. As it was asked you earlier (by a paki member), whether a medicine can cure something in 1x or not (irrespective of homeopathy, allopathy or herbal etc), you denied this claim. this means that you actually denied any kind of cure from herbal product too bcoz few times, the manufacturer use herbal medicine in 1x quantity and they all are getting good results, this is really a matter of surprise for everyone that you even denied of having any cure in 1x this means you actually denying to have cure from all herbal product too. If you have reached at this stage of discussion just to oppose homeopathy then what else you want to discuss with Pakistani Homeopaths, i think to protest not to reply at your posts on homeopathic issues is a right decission.

 

[flume]

Miss DD, your post again makes me think it is a communication problem, which we might be able to figure out. I will look at the posts later.

 

[clarsct]

Most of the herbal product are in material doses / quantity. As it was asked you earlier (by a paki member), whether a medicine can cure something in 1x or not (irrespective of homeopathy, allopathy or herbal etc), you denied this claim.

I've been lurking about here, and I think I even had a few posts. Now, which claim, exactly, are you talking about? 'whether medicine can cure something in 1x or not'? Cure what? And if it cures it, why use it at 1x? Wouldn't full strength be better? How many doses would it take? Where were the cures studied, and under what conditions? What sample size was used?

No, we generally don't blindly agree to inherently vague statements. It's the nature of skepticism.


this means that you actually denied any kind of cure from herbal product too bcoz few times, the manufacturer use herbal medicine in 1x quantity and they all are getting good results, this is really a matter of surprise for everyone that you even denied of having any cure in 1x this means you actually denying to have cure from all herbal product too.

What results? Which herbs? Why not isolate the active ingredients and use those, such as we do with aspirin? Aspirin came from willow bark, yet we use it. So, I don't think the 'herbal' argument applies here. And, once again, you're rather vague.

If you have reached at this stage of discussion just to oppose homeopathy then what else you want to discuss with Pakistani Homeopaths, i think to protest not to reply at your posts on homeopathic issues is a right decission.

What does a 1x solution have to do with homeopathy? This sounds a lot like a 'red herring' fallacy. We were starting to make some progress with Sheik, so why not let us continue? What are you scared of? It looked as though Mojo was getting some points of agreement, and I was looking foward to the future discussion.

"When data reared it ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled...Brave brave brave brave.....Dr. MAS"

 

[Donks]

Most of the herbal product are in material doses / quantity. As it was asked you earlier (by a paki member), whether a medicine can cure something in 1x or not (irrespective of homeopathy, allopathy or herbal etc), you denied this claim.

Not true. The questions was "if a homeopath claims to cure something with 1x, would we accept it." For instance, I can claim to cure baldness with regular 500mg aspirin. Aspirin is standard, evidence based evidence, so you should accept my claim I cured baldness with it? No. You should require I present evidence that I can cure baldness with aspirin.

this means that you actually denied any kind of cure from herbal product too bcoz few times, the manufacturer use herbal medicine in 1x quantity and they all are getting good results, this is really a matter of surprise for everyone that you even denied of having any cure in 1x this means you actually denying to have cure from all herbal product too.

This stems from your earlier error. We do not claim that a 1x remedy will cure nothing. We simply refuse to accept a claim that a 1x remedy will cure something without knowing what the remedy is, what the something is, and seeing some evidence.

If you have reached at this stage of discussion just to oppose homeopathy then what else you want to discuss with Pakistani Homeopaths, i think to protest not to reply at your posts on homeopathic issues is a right decission.

I think they should stop replying too, but not as a protest. They have shown that they have nothing to bring to the table but feeble word games.

 

[Mojo]

Most of the herbal product are in material doses / quantity. As it was asked you earlier (by a paki member), whether a medicine can cure something in 1x or not (irrespective of homeopathy, allopathy or herbal etc), you denied this claim. this means that you actually denied any kind of cure from herbal product too bcoz few times, the manufacturer use herbal medicine in 1x quantity and they all are getting good results, this is really a matter of surprise for everyone that you even denied of having any cure in 1x this means you actually denying to have cure from all herbal product too. If you have reached at this stage of discussion just to oppose homeopathy then what else you want to discuss with Pakistani Homeopaths, i think to protest not to reply at your posts on homeopathic issues is a right decission.

Interesting, isn't it, that at pretty much the precise moment when the MAS collective decide to make a point by refusing to post here, a new poster whose use of English is strikingly familiar shows up to continue their arguments.

 

[Mojo]

As it was asked you earlier (by a paki member), whether a medicine can cure something in 1x or not (irrespective of homeopathy, allopathy or herbal etc), you denied this claim.

Miss DD, the question asked was this:

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Let's take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

(emphasis mine)

This is a question about claims made by homeopaths, not about the nature of medicines themselves.

Do you understand that the question that you claim was asked is not the same as the one that was actually asked?

 

[H'ethetheth]

One thing is certain though: Reading posts from the MAS collective isn't healthy. If I carry on reading, I'm going to need a lot of aspirin and a psychiatrist.

 

[Zep]

This is typical of the MAS collective. They ask a question, get an answer, then get all in a tizzy about a DIFFERENT answer to a DIFFERENT question. Either it IS a language problem, or this is a deliberate attempt to distort reality to suit their own purposes. Frankly, I'm leaning more and more towards the "distortion" angle.

And Miss DD, in which city do you live?

 

[Mojo]

Right after BSM posted his "Yes" answer, this message was posted in otherhealth:
http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=5373&page=1&pp=10
To me it doesn't suggest lying by the original writer of the message

On the other hand, is anything suggested by the fact that he describes himself in his sig as "Doctor Aamir Shahzad" while the qualifications that follow do not appear to include any entitling him to that appellation?

 

[Miss DD]

I think they should stop replying too, but not as a protest. They have shown that they have nothing to bring to the table but feeble word games.

May be you are right. I cannot speak for them. But If I ask you a question and you reply me in "Yes" or "No" then you will better understand what their protest is !

Can any allopathic medicine cure any disease? "YES" or "No"

 

[Miss DD]

And Miss DD, in which city do you live?

I am lady homeopath. I live in Qdar, Pakistan.

 

[Donks]

Can any allopathic medicine cure any disease? "YES" or "No"

(I am assuming you mean "are there diseases that can be cured with modern medicine").
Yes.

 

[Hawk one]

Can any allopathic medicine cure any disease? "YES" or "No"

If we follow the allopathic principles to the letter, the answer is of course "No".

Of course, modern medicine does not follow allopathic principles. It was abandonded about 200 years ago. So I'm not sure what your point is. We know allopathy as a principle doesn't work, just like homeopathy.

 

[flume]

Miss DD, there are two words in your question which I think have tricky meanings.

One word is 'allopathic'. Some people who favor alternative medicines use this word as a label for modern 'western' medicine, and they use it in a negative way. For this reason, many skeptics dislike this word. I don't know the historical meaning of the word, but Hawk one's post suggests that it had a specific meaning which is not an accurate description of modern medicine.

Donks assumed you meant the word 'allopathic' to mean modern standard medicine, and I assume you did too. Would the meaning of your question be the same if we substituted 'modern medicine' for 'allopathic medicine'?

(Hawk one, if Miss DD meant modern medicine, rather than a literal historical definition of allopathy, what would your answer be?)

The second word that is tricky is 'cure'. I think Rolfe and Badly Shaved Monkey and others had a discussion about the exact meaning of the word "cure" with someone else who favored homeopathy. One meaning of the word "cure" would be to remove the disease completely. Maybe an antibiotic would be considered to cure a disease. Insulin doesn't cure diabetes but it successfully treats the condition so the patient can live. I don't know if your question is about drugs completely eliminating disease, or if you are asking more casually if drugs at 1X can have a useful physiological effect .

If you are asking whether modern medical drugs can have a physiolgical effect at 1x and can be used to treat certain diseases at 1x, then the answer is yes.

(I'm thinking 1X would mean 100 mg; some drugs might come in larger or smaller amounts per dose depending on the drug.)