How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

[MRC_Hans]

Before answering this question to "YES", I would like to inform you that BSM (badly shaved monkey) has accepted the phsyiological action of these potencies under the limit of avogadros number.

No, not on a general level. What has been accepted is that some substances have some effect in chemically significant concnetrations. That does not imply that they have a curative effect, however.

Now we can say that if a homeopath claim that he / she has cured something with belladonna 6x potency then we should not object on this claim.

Yes we should. The possible effect of diluted remedies is only one of the controversies about homeopathy. Even if such a dispute were to be settled (temporarily possible by concnetrating on very low dilutions), there stil lremains the problem of the idea of the vital principle (the real cornerstone of the homeopathic doctrine) and the thesis of "like cures like".

A long way to go, Mr. Sheik, a long way.

Yes, I admit according to your calculation which is correct, we can say, homeopathic potency cannot have any effect above avogadros number limit.

Excellent! Could you do us a favor and present this position at some of the homeopathy boards, please? I would like ot see the reaction .

How can it effect above avogadros number? This is the next question we should have address in our next discussion.

Or, we could address one of the other controversies.

So before I answering your question in "affirmative" YES, I would like to know your opininon on my (this) post.

Do you agree what BSM said?

I agree with what BSM (and the rest of us) REALLY said. I do not agree with your (mis)representation of it.

Hans

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

You're right. There are three ranges.

1. Real physiology and pharmacology. Around 1X to 3X. Biological effects may happen, but a cure based on homeopathic principles is unlikely to be one of them, not least because "like cures like" is a fiction.

2. Sub-physiological and sub-pharmacological. Around 6X to 10X. Sensitive chemical assays would reveal the presence of active molecules, but they are too dilute for any significant biological effects.

3. Solute-free. From 12X or 24C onwards. There is nothing but solvent. No effects will occur and nothing would be detected in the solution if chemically assayed.

Most of homeopathy is done with dilutions beyond 12X or 24C so it is these that make homeopathy look the most ridiculous.

Let's take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

Let's take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

Do you not read the posts we make?

If a homeopath claims that some remedies in 1X or 3X have some effect on the body then we might agree, depending on which remedy it is. If it is Belladonna, sure it will have an effect, but if it is Nat Mur, or Sulph, then, no, it probably has no effect.

We have not even STARTED to discuss cure.

Hans

 

[Zep]

Re: Re: Re: Effects of \"low potency\" remedies

Let\'s take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

I thought I demonstrated above that a 4X solution of NaCl (sodium chloride) is indistinguishable from plain water, as far as the human body is concerned. In fact, most tap-water is MORE concentrated in various salts than a 4X solution, yet tap-water is hardly likely to cure anything more than dehydration or plain old thirst.

You MUST understand that even with measureable quantities of substance in a remedy, that does NOT automatically mean it will cure anything at all.

 

[MRC_Hans]

This seems to be the latest trend in homeopath's "arguing" (also visible at Otherhealth):

Homeopath: Would you agree that Beladonna (or arsenic or some other potent stuff) would poison you in a 3X potency?

Skeptic: Yes, that is correct.

Homeopath: So you agree that homeopathic remedies can cure in potencies below Avogadro's limit?




Hans

 

[Jeff Corey]

Re: Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

Let's take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

No. Not at all. Claims are not proof. There is no proof that homeopathic remedies cure anything.
You already stated you know nothing of chemistry or mathematics. Now we must add "any science whatsoever" to that long list of things you know nothing about.

 

[Zep]

Looks like all he can do is mix drinks...

 

[Mouthfire]

Re: Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

Let's take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

Claiming is different than proving.... I really don't accept claims unless they are independently reproducible.

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

Let's take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

No, I will not accept it. I need to know what was the illness he claims to have cured, and what was the substance he cured it with.

We agree that a 1X or 3X preparation might have an appreciable effect on the body, depending on the substance involved. But if it's an inert substance, then it will still have no effect.

However, we point out that "having an effect on the body" is not the same as curing disease.

Sheikh, you're way out of your depth here.

Rolfe.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Re: Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

Let's take this issue in this manner:

1. If a homeopath claim that he has cured something with 1x or 3x then will you accept? irrespective of principles. We are talking on materilistic ground.

Oh, dear. Is this deliberate cunning or do you really think that these twisted misrepresentations are what we have said?

You have also ignored the subject of 'high' potencies. You have already received adequate answers about low potencies: they might affect the body, it is unlikely cure anything according to homeopathic principles, somebody reporting they got better after taking a low potency remedy has nothing to say about whether the remedy produced the cure. Got it?

Right. Please deal with the 'high' potency dilutions or stop wasting our time.

 

[Rolfe]

Homeopath: Would you agree that Beladonna (or arsenic or some other potent stuff) would poison you in a 3X potency?

Skeptic: Yes, that is correct.

I'm not even sure that is correct. The concentrations of the active substances in the mother tinctures seem to be so low that I suspect a 1 in 1,000 solution might be fairly innocuous. (Remember, the LSD mother tincture was reported to me made by dissolving only 250μg in water.) And then, how much of the solution are we taking? A small drop on a sugar pill?

No, I'd need a lot more detail than just "3X" before I agreed that anything would definitly be poisonous.

(Yes, I did get half way through figuring out the numbers on where the poisonous limit might be for the toxins we spoke of, but I got a headache! It's all pretty academic if they won't tell us the composition of the mother tincture, anyway.)

Rolfe.

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

No, I will not accept it. I need to know what was the illness he claims to have cured, and what was the substance he cured it with.

It would be nice to know rather more than that, in fact, such as what other types of treatment the patient had been receiving, how many other remedies the homeopath had tried and rejected as not properly "individualised," how many other patients the homeopath had treated for the same condition and what their outcomes were...

Basically, they need to provide an awful lot of very detailed information if a given anecdote is not just to be dismissed as a combination of reporting bias and post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Hey, why don't they perform properly blinded and controlled studies. That would be far more conclusive!

 

[Jeff Corey]

I think they don't for two main reasons. First, they seem to get less scientific training than our undergraduates. And if they actually knew what a scientific study was, they might be afraid to attempt one because the results would prove their treatment to be worthless.

 

[flume]

Dr. A Sheikh, I hope you will explain your ideas about the high dilutions.

You said you agreed with the calculations posted showing the dilutions using Avogadro's number. Those calculations showed that at high dilutions, the probability of any molecule from the original sample remaining in the remedy would be extremely low.
Do you agree that high dilution remedies cannot be acting through the presence of the original material?
Or are you thinking that those calculations do not apply to actual homeopathic preparations.

Some other posts by Pakistan homeopaths suggested the calculations would not apply to actual preparations, for reasons such as these (which were never explained):
*Preparations were not evenly diluted because of they were not in solution completely or the amount of the remedy substance was not transferred from one tube to the next tube at the expected dilution.

*There were many compounds in the starting substance, not just one type of molecule.

*The remedy material broke down into one or more different compounds, so the action was not from the original material itself but from a molecule formed during dilution.

*The remedy interacted with the ethyl alcohol solvent to create more of a new compound on each dilution.

Are you assuming that something like this might be happening?

If so, do you think that at least the remedies made from simple, soluble, substances like NaCl would not contain any active substance at the high dilutions?

Or do you feel that high dilution remedies act by some non-chemical means (such as water memory or an unknwon energy)?

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Sheikh, you done a marvalous job. You (single man) fought with too many family members. you have lot of stamina.

Take some rest, you cannot discuss with them. You are sensible person and they need Non-sense person like me.

A non-sense can better understand non-sense.

Let me give chance to discuss with non-sense.

 

[Mouthfire]

Sheikh, you done a marvalous job. You (single man) fought with too many family members. you have lot of stamina.

Take some rest, you cannot discuss with them. You are sensible person and they need Non-sense person like me.

A non-sense can better understand non-sense.

Let me give chance to discuss with non-sense.

Yeah, exactly, Sheikh/MAS... why don't you take a break so your other sock-puppet can have a go?

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Dr. MAS is so busy that he has no time for this non-sense discussion. He is engaged in organizing homeopathic doctors. A man cannot be present at a time. We know who is sheikh.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=63

Pakistan Homeopathic Doctors Association (PHDA) organizers Meeting was held at Dr. MAS residence. The meeting was chaired by Dr. Kausar Naheed Anwar (President PHDA Punjab Province).

The agenda infront of the committee was to develop infra structure of the association at each city and district level of Gujrat. The following decisions were taken by the organizing committee.

The committee nominated Dr. M Saleem as President PHDA District Gujrat for the next two years.

The organizing committee nominated Dr. Sikandar as Chief Patron of the Association.

The committee emphasized on the executive to make maximum membership of the homeopathic doctors.

The steps were taken in improving the standard of education and uplift of the status of homeopathy in the country.

The executives and organizers thanked Dr. MAS for providing an opportunity to discuss homeopathic issues in friendly manners at his residence. The president also commended the efforts of Dr. Mas, which made the meeting possible.

Doctors belonging from different cities were present in the meeting. Dr. Iftikhar Mughal specially came from Gujranwala.

 

[Donks]

Dr. MAS is so busy that he has no time for this non-sense discussion. He is engaged in organizing homeopathic doctors. A man cannot be present at a time. We know who is sheikh.

Howdy Nonsense. Are you going to answer any questions?

 

[Mojo]

Sheikh, you done a marvalous job.

He certainly has.

He's admitted to his ignorance in a wide variety of subjects (such as chemistry and arithmetic, for a start), and conceded that Avogadro's constant does apply to homeopathic preparations.

Good of you to turn up to rescue him.

 

[Jeff Corey]

ex post.

.