How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

OK, so do you agree there are a finite number of molecules of water in any given amount of water?

(Mojo, we\'re getting there, but slowly!)

again I don't know but I accept "YES"

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Do you accept that if you divide a finite number by a larger finite number you will get an answer that is less than 1?

I am not competent in chemistry subject. But anyway, I accept "YES"

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Do you accept the homeopathic medicine may have physiological action under avogadros numbers limit? YES or No (A simple answer is required)

Yes

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh Whenever, you will accept that homeopathic potencies have physiological action under the limit of avogadro number limit then I will address your question of above the limit of avogadros number.

OK, we're ready for it.

 

[Zep]

I am not competent in chemistry subject. But anyway, I accept \"YES\"

This was a question to do with basic arithmetic, NOT chemistry, actually. Does that help you understand better in any way?

 

[Zep]

Incidentally, Sheikh, if you are simply "accepting" these propositions just to be agreeable but you are still NOT understanding what you are agreeing to, then it's all fairly pointless.

So, do you understand what Mojo has been asking you about? I mean REALLY understand? If not, please say so. It's going to be pointless trying to move on unless you do. OK?

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

quote:
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Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Do you accept the homeopathic medicine may have physiological action under avogadros numbers limit? YES or No (A simple answer is required)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes

OK,

Welcome back BSM

Where were you? we missed you a lot.

It come to my notice that you are un-happy with all of us. If so, then please accept our appology. Please do participate in the discussion as you were participating in the past.

Thanks for the acceptance in "YES". That's really great. I think, we have solved 50% of problem. Now the question remains how does homeopathy potency work above avogadros limit? Am I right?

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Incidentally, Sheikh, if you are simply "accepting" these propositions just to be agreeable but you are still NOT understanding what you are agreeing to, then it's all fairly pointless.

So, do you understand what Mojo has been asking you about? I mean REALLY understand? If not, please say so. It's going to be pointless trying to move on unless you do. OK?

No No I understand what you meant. I am not non-sense homeopath. You please carry on.

I just said, I am not expert in airthematic neither I am chemist.

 

[Donks]

Now the question remains how does homeopathy potency work above avogadros limit? Am I right?

As is par for the course, no you are not right. You have to show that effects of homeopathic remedies well below Avogadro's limit (ie those with enough molecules in them so that they are something other than just another contaminant) actually do what's advertised. In other words, you have to show that any homeopathic remedy actually cures any illness through homeopathic principles. Showing a biological effect of a 1X remedy is not enough.

 

[Mojo]

I am not competent in chemistry subject. But anyway, I accept "YES"

Now, you have acknowledged that matter is composed of atoms and that an atom has a finite mass. This means that a given amount of a given substance will contain a finite number of atoms.

You have also accepted that if you divide a finite number by a larger finite number you will get an answer that is less than 1.

This means that if you serially dilute a solution containing a finite mass (and therefore a finite number of atoms) of a solute, it is inevitable that you will eventually arrive at a situation where there is less than one atom in each dose.

Do you still maintain that Avogadro's limit "does not apply over homeopathic potencies?"

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

This means that if you serially dilute a solution containing a finite mass (and therefore a finite number of atoms) of a solute, it is inevitable that you will eventually arrive at a situation where there is less than one atom in each dose.

Do you still maintain that Avogadro's limit "does not apply over homeopathic potencies?"

Before answering this question to "YES", I would like to inform you that BSM (badly shaved monkey) has accepted the phsyiological action of these potencies under the limit of avogadros number. Now we can say that if a homeopath claim that he / she has cured something with belladonna 6x potency then we should not object on this claim.

Yes, I admit according to your calculation which is correct, we can say, homeopathic potency cannot have any effect above avogadros number limit.

How can it effect above avogadros number? This is the next question we should have address in our next discussion.

So before I answering your question in "affirmative" YES, I would like to know your opininon on my (this) post.

Do you agree what BSM said?

 

[Donks]

Now we can say that if a homeopath claim that he / she has cured something with belladonna 6x potency then we should not object on this claim.

Wrong. What did the homeopath claim to cure with 6x potency belladonna? What were the physiological processes that caused the cure?

 

[Zep]

One step at a time, please, Sheikh. Do you agree with Mojo's proposal?

We will go on to BSM's situation shortly. And if you want to read ahead to prepare for this conversation, please consider what Donks has written.

 

[Mojo]

Before answering this question to "YES", I would like to inform you that BSM (badly shaved monkey) has accepted the phsyiological action of these potencies under the limit of avogadros number. Now we can say that if a homeopath claim that he / she has cured something with belladonna 6x potency then we should not object on this claim.

Yes, I admit according to your calculation which is correct, we can say, homeopathic potency cannot have any effect above avogadros number limit.

How can it effect above avogadros number? This is the next question we should have address in our next discussion.

So before I answering your question in "affirmative" YES, I would like to know your opininon on my (this) post.

Do you agree what BSM said?

BSM answered "yes" to your question:

Do you accept the homeopathic medicine may have physiological action under avogadros numbers limit? (emphasis BSM's)

This does not say that all homeopathic preparations have an effect at these concentrations, far less does it say that they have the effects claimed by homeopaths. It just states that it is possible for some substances to have some physiological effect at some concentrations.

So, yes, I agree with BSM's statement that it is possible for a substance to have a physiological action, in solutions where the substance is actually present. This is hardly contentious; drugs are administered in measurable dosages, and have been observed to have consistent physiological effects. It does not have any bearing, however, on whether homeopathy actually works.

I will therefore feel free to continue to object to unsupported claims made by homeopaths.

See also what Donks posted:

As is par for the course, no you are not right. You have to show that effects of homeopathic remedies well below Avogadro's limit (ie those with enough molecules in them so that they are something other than just another contaminant) actually do what's advertised. In other words, you have to show that any homeopathic remedy actually cures any illness through homeopathic principles. Showing a biological effect of a 1X remedy is not enough.

 

[Zep]

I'll give you an example of dose-dependancy, Sheikh.

Consider our two favourite substances here - NaCl (sodium chloride, or common salt), and belladonna. You and I can probably eat a teaspoon or two of straight salt, and it will not do us much, if any, harm. If we ate a number of spoonfuls it MAY make a person feel quite distinctly ill, and would throw their digestion off for a while. But it wouldn't actually kill them. But if we ate even a fraction of a teaspoon of straight belladonna we would die a rapid and painful death.

Now let's dilute these equally, 1:100 with water. The salt solution will still taste vaguely salty (it would be very like mineral water, actually), and would ahve little if any effect on us if we drank it by the glassful. But the belladonna would still be highy toxic, probably as much as straight substance.

Now let's dilute 1:100 again with water, making it a 1:10000 solution each. By this time, the salt solution would probably be tasteless, and we could drink it by the jugful with no ill effect. The belladonna, however, would still be highly potent and deadly, although it may take slightly more of the solution, maybe a whole teaspoonful?, to kill someone.

By the time we have diluted once more 1:100, we have reached 1:1000000, one part in one million of the original substance, or 6X. At this point, the salt solution is effectively water and has no more effect on a person than straight undiluted water - they are equivalent in action and effect. However the belladonna is still likely to make a significant effect on the human body - severe arsenic poisoning at least.

Note the difference in action - at this dilution the salt is now almost totally harmless, while the belladonna is still potentially very harmful. This is called dose dependance. The effect caused depends on the SIZE of the dose given AND the substance being given AND the effect that the substance has on the human body.

Do you agree with this?

 

[Mojo]

How can it effect above avogadros number? This is the next question we should have address in our next discussion.

Actually, before getting involved with this question, it would be rather a good idea if you were to establish that it has any effect at all. Otherwise the whole question of how it has an effect is totally pointless.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Now the question remains how does homeopathy potency work above avogadros limit? Am I right?

No you are wrong. All I have agreed is that homeopathically prepared substances "may" have an effect when they contain molecules of that substance. Having an effect is not the same as creating a homeopathic cure. I hope you need this as simple clarification not because you think you are playing clever word games and have got us to agree with you. We have not.

Many lines of evidence suggest that basic homeopathic principles are in error and cannot produce cures even if concentrated solutions of the substance are used.

So, the question remains whether homeopathy works not how homeopathy works. You have tried illegitimately to change the question.

But you have got your answer. I say that a homeopathically prepared solution of belladonna will have some effect on the body provided it is sufficiently concentrated. The serial nature of the dilution and the succussion are irrelevant. When I shake up a bottle of 1% atropine and inject it into a patient I see effects. The existence of these effects has nothing to say about the validity of low potency homeopathy.

However, we are more interested in 'high' potencies. Please move on to answer the questions you have been asked about potencies higher than 12C or 24X.

 

[Rolfe]

Effects of "low potency" remedies

In this context it is relevant that

1. some substances have no effect on the body at all
2. where there is an effect, this decreases with concentration, AND DISAPPEARS WELL BEFORE ALL THE SUBSTANCE HAS GONE FROM SOLUTION
3. almost all substances have no appreciable effect on the body at 6X
4. in any case, an "effect" is not the same as a cure.[/list=1]So, there is every reason to object to a claim that Belladonna 6X has produced a cure.
   
   Although Belladonna does contain substances which have an appreciable effect on the body, and there may even be some molecules of these substances present in a 6X preparation, the concentration is far too low for any effect to occur. Indeed, given the likely concentration of alkaloids in a Belladonna mother tincture, and the tiny amount of solution applied to the sugar pills, I think it is quite possible that there might not even be any molecules of atropine in a 6X sugar pill preparation.
   
   However, even if there were, as I said, there are too few to have any effect on the body. And we know what the effects of high-dose atropine are, and there are very few things we might expect it to "cure". In fact it is regarded as a poison, although there are indeed some very specific medical situations where its action is beneficial (or rather, desirable).
   
   So no, not agreeing to any statement that any 6X preparation of anything can be a "cure".
   
   Now, if you look at 1X or 2X, then we might indeed agree that such a preparation might have effects on the body. Depending on the substance you're talking about. But that still isn't the same as agreeing that anything is likely to be cured.
   
   [I'm torn, guys. Why homoeopathy doesn't work at 2X is one thing (like not generally curing like), why it doesn't work at 6X is something else (below the concentration at which any dissolved substance is going to have a physiological effect, at any plausible mother tincture concentration), and why it's totally preposterous at over 12C and 24X (no substance of the mother tincture left at all) is yet another something else. I'd quite like to see how <STRIKE>MAS</STRIKE> Sheikh tackles the third, but on the other hand there's also quite a lot of fun to be had with the first two, and if he wants to tackle these first, it looks as if we'll never get to the molecule-free preparations at all.]
   
   Rolfe.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

Why homoeopathy doesn't work at 2X is one thing (like not generally curing like), why it doesn't work at 6X is something else (below the concentration at which any dissolved substance is going to have a physiological effect, at any plausible mother tincture concentration), and why it's totally preposterous at over 12C and 24X (no substance of the mother tincture left at all) is yet another something else. I'd quite like to see how <STRIKE>MAS</STRIKE> Sheikh tackles the third, but on the other hand there's also quite a lot of fun to be had with the first two, and if he wants to tackle these first, it looks as if we'll never get to the molecule-free preparations at all.

You're right. There are three ranges.

1. Real physiology and pharmacology. Around 1X to 3X. Biological effects may happen, but a cure based on homeopathic principles is unlikely to be one of them, not least because "like cures like" is a fiction.

2. Sub-physiological and sub-pharmacological. Around 6X to 10X. Sensitive chemical assays would reveal the presence of active molecules, but they are too dilute for any significant biological effects.

3. Solute-free. From 12X or 24C onwards. There is nothing but solvent. No effects will occur and nothing would be detected in the solution if chemically assayed.

Most of homeopathy is done with dilutions beyond 12X or 24C so it is these that make homeopathy look the most ridiculous.

 

[flume]

Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

3. Solute-free. From 12X or 24C onwards.

Typo alert.
I'm sure BSM meant 12C or 24X here.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Re: Re: Re: Effects of "low potency" remedies

Typo alert.
I'm sure BSM meant 12C or 24X here.

Yes. Thanks. You're right. I did.

So, let's wait for Sheikh