How crazy is too crazy to own a gun?

[Giz]

Thanks. I'm going to use those stats.
30% of violent felons had no prior arrest record. 33% of murderers and 27% of those convicted of robbery or assault had no arrest record.

Yep, 2/3rds had done something bad and been caught. 1/3rd may have been bad (and not been caught) or were, maybe, first timers. Basically, they're mainly habitual scumbags... so hardly a "murderer next door" (unless you live in a bad neighborhood... like death row)

All in these groups would be eligible (before the crime) to buy and carry a gun - provided they weren't documented to be nuts.

Yes, so? You can't deny civil rights arbitrarily. This isn't news.

 

[Ranb]

A couple of things. #1, those young ladies are likely IDF soldiers, not just randos on the street. #2, correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears as though the magazines are attached to the side; ie, the guns aren't loaded.

I think they are IDF. But those rifles can be loaded in seconds. So what if it was a coupe of young ladies at Chipotles instead of the men shown in the link?

Ranb

 

[Giz]

So what if it was a coupe of young ladies at Chipotles instead of the men shown in the link?

Ranb

In the drive thru?

 

[marplots]

Yes, so? You can't deny civil rights arbitrarily. This isn't news.

Avoiding arbitrary just means you have some standard in play - it doesn't tell us what that standard should be.

 

[The Norseman]

Everyone is too crazy to own a gun. That's why you restrict access to them to only those people who can demonstrate a genuine requirement for one.

Didn't you say in another thread that you believed even police shouldn't have firearms?

 

[The Don]

It's a very difficult question. There are several difficulties about setting the level of crazy and assessing people against it.

AFAIK there is some degree of subjectivity in any kind of psychological assessment so getting a 100% accurate and unquestionable figure for how crazy someone is. Evaluated by one psychiatrist I may be just over the arbitrary crazy line, evaluated by another I may be just under that line.

Psychological health varies over time. Today I may be fine, tomorrow I may not. I may not exhibit any symptoms for days or weeks at a time but fly into murderous delusional rages. Assessed any time other than in one of those rages (when I'm unlikely to be out and about in any case), I'd be fine but I probably shouldn't have a gun.

Whether or not I'm taking my medication could be a major factor. If I'm taking my anti-psychotics then it's unfair to deny me access to guns for sport, hunting, recreation and protecting myself and my family. If I'm not then I may present a danger to myself and others with them. Some patients don't take all of their medication all of the time.

Even if an individual's level of "crazy" could somehow be determined accurately, another major problem is defining how crazy is too crazy to own a gun.

Given all of the above I think it's impossible to fairly determine whether someone should own a gun based on their mental health status. Personally I would say that no-one gets a gun unless they can demonstrate a need for it, that gun ownership should be positively vetted and that handguns or other guns for personal protection should not be allowed (the UK model for gun ownership and licencing) and even then we'll get it wrong again and again.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It's a very difficult question. There are several difficulties about setting the level of crazy and assessing people against it.

AFAIK there is some degree of subjectivity in any kind of psychological assessment so getting a 100% accurate and unquestionable figure for how crazy someone is. Evaluated by one psychiatrist I may be just over the arbitrary crazy line, evaluated by another I may be just under that line.

Psychological health varies over time. Today I may be fine, tomorrow I may not. I may not exhibit any symptoms for days or weeks at a time but fly into murderous delusional rages. Assessed any time other than in one of those rages (when I'm unlikely to be out and about in any case), I'd be fine but I probably shouldn't have a gun.

Whether or not I'm taking my medication could be a major factor. If I'm taking my anti-psychotics then it's unfair to deny me access to guns for sport, hunting, recreation and protecting myself and my family. If I'm not then I may present a danger to myself and others with them. Some patients don't take all of their medication all of the time.

Even if an individual's level of "crazy" could somehow be determined accurately, another major problem is defining how crazy is too crazy to own a gun.

Given all of the above I think it's impossible to fairly determine whether someone should own a gun based on their mental health status. Personally I would say that no-one gets a gun unless they can demonstrate a need for it, that gun ownership should be positively vetted and that handguns or other guns for personal protection should not be allowed (the UK model for gun ownership and licencing) and even then we'll get it wrong again and again.

People who don't have serious mental health issues or a criminal history may nevertheless be prone to outbursts of temper or episodes of bad judgement. Having a gun handy makes it easier for them to do something rash, and that kind of impulsive behavior accounts for a large number of murders every year in the US - not all murders, or most murders, but a sizable percentage.

Gun nuts don't like to face that reality, because it doesn't jibe with their good guy/bad guy paradigm.

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

People who don't have serious mental health issues or a criminal history may nevertheless be prone to outbursts of temper or episodes of bad judgement. Having a gun handy makes it easier for them to do something rash, and that kind of impulsive behavior accounts for a large number of murders every year in the US - not all murders, or most murders, but a sizable percentage.

Gun nuts don't like to face that reality, because it doesn't jibe with their good guy/bad guy paradigm.

I've had this gun, a .357 magnum, for more than 25 years. I still haven't murdered anybody with it. I've never pointed it or any other gun at anyone in anger. I suppose it's just a matter of time before I do something "impulsive" with it.

I prefer my killing to be premeditated with lots of careful preparation.

Tell me more about these "gun nuts" and their paradigms. How will I know one when I see him?

 

[The Don]

I've had this gun, a .357 magnum, for more than 25 years. I still haven't murdered anybody with it. I've never pointed it or any other gun at anyone in anger. I suppose it's just a matter of time before I do something "impulsive" with it.

Not at all, I hope your long period of good mental health continues and that you never find yourself in a position where, due to mental health problems, you misuse a deadly weapon.

 

[Cleon]

I think they are IDF. But those rifles can be loaded in seconds.

Indeed, but the fact that they're not currently loaded makes them rather less likely to be interested in shooting up the place. I don't believe Adam Lanza showed up with the mag strapped to the barrel.

There's also the rather significant contextual difference between an environment where virtually everyone aged 18-21 is in the military and regularly carry their weapons with them, and a country where **** like this happens on a recurring basis.

So what if it was a coupe of young ladies at Chipotles instead of the men shown in the link?

Ranb

Are you thinking this is a sexism thing?

 

[Howie Felterbush]

I've had this gun, a .357 magnum, for more than 25 years. I still haven't murdered anybody with it. I've never pointed it or any other gun at anyone in anger. I suppose it's just a matter of time before I do something "impulsive" with it.

I'd say putting that 99 dollar scope on that fine gun was fairly impulsive.

 

[sloinker]

I think it may be interesting to see the psychological profile of different gun owners, not clinically crazy but just marginally cracked. I could see an emerging demographic of the little man syndrome, wish I was a tough guy without my gun disease, small penis large gun flu......many others I'm sure. For those that hunt, long rifles and shotguns are a given. Handguns and tactical weapons have no real utility value except robbing liquor stores or wiping out innocent victims en masse. Self defense with these style weapons is a joke and mainly manifests itself with the aforementioned small genitalia psychosis.

 

[The Norseman]

People who don't have serious mental health issues or a criminal history may nevertheless be prone to outbursts of temper or episodes of bad judgement. Having a gun handy makes it easier for them to do something rash, and that kind of impulsive behavior accounts for a large number of murders every year in the US - not all murders, or most murders, but a sizable percentage.

Gun nuts don't like to face that reality, because it doesn't jibe with their good guy/bad guy paradigm.

Evidence?

 

[The Norseman]

Not at all, I hope your long period of good mental health continues and that you never find yourself in a position where, due to mental health problems, you misuse a deadly weapon.

And in the same spirit, to you as well.

 

[The Norseman]

I think it may be interesting to see the psychological profile of different gun owners, not clinically crazy but just marginally cracked. I could see an emerging demographic of the little man syndrome, wish I was a tough guy without my gun disease, small penis large gun flu......many others I'm sure. For those that hunt, long rifles and shotguns are a given. Handguns and tactical weapons have no real utility value except robbing liquor stores or wiping out innocent victims en masse. Self defense with these style weapons is a joke and mainly manifests itself with the aforementioned small genitalia psychosis.

Congrats on a well-crafted Poe -- I was close to thinking you were serious.

 

[Cleon]

I think it may be interesting to see the psychological profile of different gun owners, not clinically crazy but just marginally cracked. I could see an emerging demographic of the little man syndrome, wish I was a tough guy without my gun disease, small penis large gun flu......many others I'm sure. For those that hunt, long rifles and shotguns are a given. Handguns and tactical weapons have no real utility value except robbing liquor stores or wiping out innocent victims en masse. Self defense with these style weapons is a joke and mainly manifests itself with the aforementioned small genitalia psychosis.

What about those of us who just enjoy collecting and going to the range once in a while, Dr. Sloinker?

 

[Cainkane1]

It's often said that we need to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, but I have no idea if an extensive investigation into a person's psychiatric history is included in background checks. Since medical records are supposedly confidential, how does anyone determine whether a person is sane enough to own a firearm?

And would a restriction apply to anyone who's depressed or bipolar? I know a ton of people on anti-depressants; should they be disqualified? How about anyone who has ever been hospitalized in a psych ward? Or who has ever had the DTs? Or is a graduate of substance-abuse treatment?

How does anyone find out about people's health records, and exactly who should be denied the right to buy a gun?

A felon should not be allowed to have a gun. A person diagnosed as being mentally incompetent should not be allowed to own a gun.

If there is a person fitting these descriptions in your home then the guns should be stored elsewhere. The lunatics we've been reading about for the most part were giving off negative signals long before the massacres happened.

Bad people with guns are able to do what they do because good people with guns obey the law and are unarmed.

 

[sloinker]

What about those of us who just enjoy collecting and going to the range once in a while, Dr. Sloinker?

Just having some fun. These type of posts usually get the pro gun crowd riled to the point of derangement. This board has a somewhat more liberal bent imo so I don't see the spit flying, neck vein bulging, eye bugging out rage that other boards would evoke and I so enjoy.
I agree, crazies shouldn't have guns. I also believe that everyone should get a background check without loopholes. Reasonable gun owners aren't afraid of a little inconvenience to keep their hobby safer.

 

[Garrette]

Whatever level I'm at, plus one.

This is like a warped Foxworthy routine.

If you've ever thought to yourself "Man, that Nugent makes a lot of sense," you might be too crazy to own a gun.
If you've ever walked into Chipotle with a fully loaded AR-15, you might be too crazy to own a gun.
If you've ever uttered the words "Zionist Occupational Government" without a trace of irony, you might be too crazy to own a gun.
If you're the sort of person who demonstrates gun safety by pointing the barrel at your head and pulling the trigger, you might be too crazy to own a gun.


I could go on...

Personally, in selling firearms when I was a licensee or in private party transfers I always stick to the MOPAR rule - you don't sell to Misfits, Outcasts, Perverts, ******** or Racists.

Not bad. Is there anything that prevents this as an official policy? In other words, are you covered with a sign that say "This establishment reserves the right to refuse service to any person or persons for any reason not specifically prohibited by local, state, or federal law"?

 

[Garrette]

I've had this gun, a .357 magnum, for more than 25 years. I still haven't murdered anybody with it. I've never pointed it or any other gun at anyone in anger. I suppose it's just a matter of time before I do something "impulsive" with it.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/111684ae71c940d0b7.jpg[/qimg]

Give it time, son. Give it time.

I prefer my killing to be premeditated with lots of careful preparation.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/111684ae504d35e012.jpg[/qimg]

Tell me more about these "gun nuts" and their paradigms. How will I know one when I see him?

See? Serial killers frequently start out with sadistic treatment of animals.

A textbook case, if you ask me.