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How crazy is too crazy to own a gun?

Minoosh

Penultimate Amazing
Minoosh
Joined
Jul 15, 2011
Messages
12,901
It's often said that we need to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, but I have no idea if an extensive investigation into a person's psychiatric history is included in background checks. Since medical records are supposedly confidential, how does anyone determine whether a person is sane enough to own a firearm?

And would a restriction apply to anyone who's depressed or bipolar? I know a ton of people on anti-depressants; should they be disqualified? How about anyone who has ever been hospitalized in a psych ward? Or who has ever had the DTs? Or is a graduate of substance-abuse treatment?

How does anyone find out about people's health records, and exactly who should be denied the right to buy a gun?
 
Minoosh said:
It's often said that we need to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, but I have no idea if an extensive investigation into a person's psychiatric history is included in background checks. Since medical records are supposedly confidential, how does anyone determine whether a person is sane enough to own a firearm?
Click to expand...

If you're schizophrenic, seeing a psychiatrist, taking Risperdal, and you had a run-in with the law that resulted in a judge sending you to inpatient care? The judge's order will show up in your background-check records. It doesn't get there via the medical system, it gets there via the legal system.

If you're schizophrenic, getting psychiatric treatment and Risperdal via Medicaid, getting manhandled into inpatient care by your family, etc., your illness will not come up during a gun purchase. Buy whatever the heck you want!
 
If you want a gun, you're too crazy to own one.1

1I do not ascribe to this position, but I have met several who do, and I suspect it is the belief of at least a few on this forum. Rather than writing a long, flawed-by-definition response, I will say just this: If we accept any gun ownership and any restrictions on gun ownership then we also accept the fact that the restrictions will be imperfect, and people who use legally owned guns for Very Bad Things will be able to get those guns.
 
To legally purchase a firearm, it means you have not been adjudicated "mentally defective" by a court or have been committed to a mental health facility. Committed in this context means not free to leave. Mentally defective is described as determined by a court to be a danger to yourself or others or unable to manage your own affairs or words to that effect. Other mental health issues that can disqualify a purchase are domestic violence, addiction and conditions of probation that exclude possession of a firearm.

Crazy is kind of a popular term that's not precise enough to be useful here.
 
Garrette said:
1I do not ascribe to this position, but I have met several who do, and I suspect it is the belief of at least a few on this forum. Rather than writing a long, flawed-by-definition response, I will say just this: If we accept any gun ownership and any restrictions on gun ownership then we also accept the fact that the restrictions will be imperfect, and people who use legally owned guns for Very Bad Things will be able to get those guns.
Click to expand...

Furthermore, production of guns at all ensures that Very Bad Things will be done with them.
 
Gawdzilla said:
The local guns shops used to sell hand guns to my father long after in he was into full-blown Alzheimer's. About half the time he didn't recognize us and said he kept the guns because of "strangers in his house."
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Yes but as in the case of my mother, eventually they forget what the gun is for and probably long before they forget how to use a knife and fork. There is that period though where they can be violent. My mother threw canned goods at my father during that period. No guns in their house though, my father was always against guns.
 
ben m said:
If you're schizophrenic, seeing a psychiatrist, taking Risperdal, and you had a run-in with the law that resulted in a judge sending you to inpatient care? The judge's order will show up in your background-check records. It doesn't get there via the medical system, it gets there via the legal system.

If you're schizophrenic, getting psychiatric treatment and Risperdal via Medicaid, getting manhandled into inpatient care by your family, etc., your illness will not come up during a gun purchase. Buy whatever the heck you want!
Click to expand...

That's not necessarily true and varies greatly by jurisdiction. In Arkansas, a physician can place a 72-hour hold on a patient once per episode. To extend that hold for an adult requires a judge regardless of what any other person feels. The adjudication is a court record and will be available to any agency doing a background check unless specifically protected by statute or order. In Arkansas, that means your commitment will not be available to an employer but would be available to BATFE if they checked with that particular court or if the incident that prompted the commitment was recorded in the various databases (NCIC, state, local).

ATF 4473 requires an affidavit that you have never been what amounts to involuntarily committed to any mental health facility or found what I'll call incompetent by any court.
 
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Minoosh said:
It's often said that we need to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, but I have no idea if an extensive investigation into a person's psychiatric history is included in background checks. Since medical records are supposedly confidential, how does anyone determine whether a person is sane enough to own a firearm?

And would a restriction apply to anyone who's depressed or bipolar? I know a ton of people on anti-depressants; should they be disqualified? How about anyone who has ever been hospitalized in a psych ward? Or who has ever had the DTs? Or is a graduate of substance-abuse treatment?

How does anyone find out about people's health records, and exactly who should be denied the right to buy a gun?
Click to expand...

We could work it the other way around: prove you are sane.
 
This is like a warped Foxworthy routine.

If you've ever thought to yourself "Man, that Nugent makes a lot of sense," you might be too crazy to own a gun.
If you've ever walked into Chipotle with a fully loaded AR-15, you might be too crazy to own a gun.
If you've ever uttered the words "Zionist Occupational Government" without a trace of irony, you might be too crazy to own a gun.
If you're the sort of person who demonstrates gun safety by pointing the barrel at your head and pulling the trigger, you might be too crazy to own a gun.


I could go on...
 
Minoosh said:
It's often said that we need to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, but I have no idea if an extensive investigation into a person's psychiatric history is included in background checks. Since medical records are supposedly confidential, how does anyone determine whether a person is sane enough to own a firearm?

And would a restriction apply to anyone who's depressed or bipolar? I know a ton of people on anti-depressants; should they be disqualified? How about anyone who has ever been hospitalized in a psych ward? Or who has ever had the DTs? Or is a graduate of substance-abuse treatment?

How does anyone find out about people's health records, and exactly who should be denied the right to buy a gun?
Click to expand...

Years back there was a shooting/hostage incident in a bar near the Cal-Berkeley campus:

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/28/us/berkeley-gunman-kills-student-taken-hostage.html

The NY times story is incorrect (no M10) and incomplete.

The shooter had attempted to purchase a semi-auto pistol from a licensed FFL dealer, who after the purchase but during the 15 day waiting period he was contacted by people who knew the shooter. They informed the dealer that the guy was "nuts."

The dealer contacted the Ca. Bureau of Firearms, and was told he could not rescind the sale or refuse service based on a third party report, and that unless the guy's BG check came up bad, the BoF couldn't stop the sale either.

The dealer, being no fool and having bad feelings about the sale and the buyer, detail stripped the piece and de-fanged it so it would not fire, and released the piece to the buyer after the 15 days.

Shooter came back and reported the gun was defective and would not fire, wanted an exchange, dealer turned the guy down with an explanation of warranty service that would keep the piece out of the guy's hands as long as possible.

Guy found guns elsewhere and did his thing.

Personally, in selling firearms when I was a licensee or in private party transfers I always stick to the MOPAR rule - you don't sell to Misfits, Outcasts, Perverts, ******** or Racists.

It worked for me.

As a matter of policy though, the subject of mental health is so complicated as to make it almost impossible to come up with a set of policies that keep guns away from nuts but doesn't stigmatize individuals who suffer from mental health issues not related to criminal acts or suicidal acts.

California is fairly stringent in their approach, but a nut in Washington may move to California and there's no current protocol that allows California to check Washington state mental health records.

Universal databases may be a help, but also become a problem if individuals suffering from mental issues believe that in getting help they become stigmatized through inclusion in such a system.
 
wrs said:
Yes but as in the case of my mother, eventually they forget what the gun is for and probably long before they forget how to use a knife and fork. There is that period though where they can be violent. My mother threw canned goods at my father during that period. No guns in their house though, my father was always against guns.
Click to expand...

He croaked before that stage.
 
I've been wearing an orangeish/pinkish plaid shirt to my meetings with legislators and gun control hearings. Makes me look like a nerd; especially when I put a few pens in the pocket. Didn't do a thing for getting the Pink Pistols on my team when I talked to one of their lobbyists though. :)

Ranb
 
Being human is too crazy. There may be someone out there who has never gone into a rage and done something stupid, but I sure don't know of any.

IXP
 
How crazy is too crazy to own a gun?

This crazy:
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