PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
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How crazy is too crazy to own a gun?
- Thread starter Minoosh
- Start date
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
It's entirely possible. Like I said, it would probably depend on context. I might have been a bit sloppy with my words that day. I hope I've clarified sufficiently.
Not having access to a gun, there is absolutely zero chance that one day I will fly into a rage and shoot someone or get so confused by dementia that I accidentally shoot my wife/relative/friend/caregiver believing them to be an intruder with murderous intent. If I had access to a gun that chance would be small but non-zero.
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
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I guess I consider a gun nut to be anyone who regards the right to own guns as integral to political liberty, and who thinks that American society is better off or more secure because of widespread gun ownership.
RenaissanceBiker
Eats shoots and leaves.
What is the chance that you will fly into a rage and stab someone with a kitchen knife? Small but non-zero?
There is for me. But we were talking about guns. I understand there might be a concern about knives, but it's a separate conversation.
RenaissanceBiker
Eats shoots and leaves.
I don't think it is realistic to limit the discussion in such a way that makes guns the only way a crazy person can assault someone.
Correct but:
- You also have the same risk of attacking with a kitchen knife, the gun is in addition to this risk
- A kitchen knife can only kill in very close proximity, giving the potential victim more of a chance to escape or never becoming a potential victim, guns on the other hand can kill at a distance
- Guns are more likely to result in a fatal injury than a knife
Well, color me confused.
* Are you advocating limiting knife sales to people with mental health issues because knives are dangerous like guns?
* Are you advocating not limiting gun sales to people with mental health issues because knives are an alternate choice?
* Something else altogether?
Perhaps you could clarify where knives fall into the mix.
RenaissanceBiker
Eats shoots and leaves.
Knives, guns and a lot of other multi-purpose tools can be used as weapons. I think it makes more sense to address the problem cause (crazy people) rather than some of the tools they might use to assault people. Otherwise, you still have crazy people that could assault people.
Charlie Wilkes
Illuminator
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You're missing the big picture. Haven't you followed any of these threads?
A gun is like the wafer in Holy Communion.
To the heathen, the wafer is just a scrap of bread... but when it is consumed by the faithful, it becomes the body of Christ.
Similarly, a gun in the possession of an evil-doer (or someone who is mentally ill) is no more dangerous than a knife or a golf club, so there's no point in restricting gun sales.
But in the hands of a righteous Gun Nut, a gun acquires transcendent power and virtue, so Gun Nuts must be allowed to have guns, lest we all perish under the yoke of tyranny.
Seriously, I'm a broken record on this point, but you have to talk about upsides and downsides.
Downsides of widespread knife ownership: Lots and lots of accidental injuries, mostly minor hand injuries. Very small chance of being used in an assault.
Downsides of my personal knife ownership: Large chance of minor hand injuries to me or family members. If mental illness, etc., strikes something worse could happen, but death is unlikely.
Upsides of knife ownership: uniquely indispensable for cooking and eating, which nearly 100% of people do. Life in a knife-free household would be a huge, expensive hassle, front and center, every single day of my life.
Downsides of widespread handgun ownership: Criminals have no trouble buying guns because they're so common and cheap---thus 10,000 murders, 500k armed robberies, etc., and all of the losses incurred by people who live in fear of same.
Downsides of my personal (hypothetical) handgun ownership: My family's chance of accidents goes from 0 to nonzero (600+/y nationwide). If mental illness strikes, extremely bad outcomes become frighteningly common, including death (20,000 suicides/y nationwide) and much worse (Newtown).
Upsides to handgun ownership: Nothing big. People who are irrationally hyper-afraid of burglars want them. Target shooting is fun. Certain hunting activities are, apparently, better suited to handguns. Some handgun owners use their handguns as a prop in a roleplaying fantasy in which theybecome armed antidemocracy terrorists "overthrow a tyrant". So, handguns? No daily upsides, no irreplaceable upsides, etc..
That's why "regulate guns" is a better idea than "regulate knives" or "regulate cars even more than we do now". Universal knife ownership has huge upsides and minor downsides. Near-universal handgun ownership has huge downsides and very few upsides. Are we done with the "knife" comparison now, please? Good.
Downsides of widespread knife ownership: Lots and lots of accidental injuries, mostly minor hand injuries. Very small chance of being used in an assault.
Downsides of my personal knife ownership: Large chance of minor hand injuries to me or family members. If mental illness, etc., strikes something worse could happen, but death is unlikely.
Upsides of knife ownership: uniquely indispensable for cooking and eating, which nearly 100% of people do. Life in a knife-free household would be a huge, expensive hassle, front and center, every single day of my life.
Downsides of widespread handgun ownership: Criminals have no trouble buying guns because they're so common and cheap---thus 10,000 murders, 500k armed robberies, etc., and all of the losses incurred by people who live in fear of same.
Downsides of my personal (hypothetical) handgun ownership: My family's chance of accidents goes from 0 to nonzero (600+/y nationwide). If mental illness strikes, extremely bad outcomes become frighteningly common, including death (20,000 suicides/y nationwide) and much worse (Newtown).
Upsides to handgun ownership: Nothing big. People who are irrationally hyper-afraid of burglars want them. Target shooting is fun. Certain hunting activities are, apparently, better suited to handguns. Some handgun owners use their handguns as a prop in a roleplaying fantasy in which they
That's why "regulate guns" is a better idea than "regulate knives" or "regulate cars even more than we do now". Universal knife ownership has huge upsides and minor downsides. Near-universal handgun ownership has huge downsides and very few upsides. Are we done with the "knife" comparison now, please? Good.
If I am asked whether I would want to confront a crazy person armed with a knife or with a gun, the answer seems easy enough. But of course, when you come right down to it, I'd want to avoid the crazy person even if they were only armed with their own teeth.
Which brings up another possible controversy. If, in order to save my gun collection, I have to shift the focus toward crazy people instead of their armaments, how is that going to fly against the rather modern idea that crazy people shouldn't be arbitrarily sequestered, but medicated and embedded in society instead. It's a tough sell if the new choice is going to be between keeping them safely away from us, or arming myself in case they are freely roaming, with access to deadly tools.
Keep the kids off the playground or make a safer playground? Current thinking seems to be: make no changes, but buy a first-aid kit.
Which brings up another possible controversy. If, in order to save my gun collection, I have to shift the focus toward crazy people instead of their armaments, how is that going to fly against the rather modern idea that crazy people shouldn't be arbitrarily sequestered, but medicated and embedded in society instead. It's a tough sell if the new choice is going to be between keeping them safely away from us, or arming myself in case they are freely roaming, with access to deadly tools.
Keep the kids off the playground or make a safer playground? Current thinking seems to be: make no changes, but buy a first-aid kit.
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sloinker
Critical Thinker
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- 455
Actually a short barreled shotgun with slugs would be my weapon of choice for hogs in the brush. Big pistol as a sidearm if you are in brown bear country hiking/fishing. That truly is the only exception I see for handguns. Don't get me wrong, I have shot my share of pistols and have enjoyed it. I still don't see the utile value when weighed against the harm pistols bring to our society. I will seartch for the statistic if needed but I conjecture that for every succesful thwarting of a home invasion with a handgun there are many more accidental deaths/murders that can be claimed. There are other more appropriate weapons that can be used for hunting or home protection than pistols. When was the last time a 4 year old shot themselves with a long gun?
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
Tell you what, let's not arbitrarily rely on opinions here. How about I give you $1 for every death resulting from an attack with a kitchen knife and you give me $1 for every death resulting from an attack with a gun.
Deal?
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
Cool, can I be the one who arbitrates what those signals are if they get a gun?
Short barreled shotguns have been illegal for most civilians in WA since 1994. The irony is that the Youth Violence Act of 1994 banned new purchase of these guns by law abiding civilians even though no one ever claimed they were ever associated with violent crime in the state. One of the bill authors said they banned the guns to reduce calls for major restrictions, in other words just because they could.
This is different than your earlier claim that “handguns have no real utility value except robbing liquor stores or wiping out innocent victims….”
If the firearm can be used by the hunter to quickly kill the animal then it does not really matter what kind is used, handgun or rifle. Ever hear of the TC G2 or Encore? They are handguns designed for the hunter, powerful and accurate enough to get the job done.
Ranb
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The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
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Yup, thank you.