Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[Caustic Logic]

There's a case for this saying, translated as Google does, "from here on over" (perhaps meaning from here on out, this point forward), then Al-Jeesh Al-Hurra, "Free Army." Standard shorthand for FSA.

Anyone could have written it, of course, and it's a SANA video, etc. If it's the Alawite family Abdullah, as it could be by the numbers shown, it's also a roomfull of victims the rebels knew nothing about, never getting the bodies in the mass grave, never mentioning them, how the regime killed them, or why.

Also, we have the Saad Street RPG incident page back up. I said I'd stay out of Hover Boarder's Syria thread, but I'll thank him here for the counter-thoughts he offered. Intent and delivery aside, it was a useful exercise, and those baseless gripes and my answers have been added there. I hope it can help talk the nay-sayers through the process of discovering the apparently un-checked horizontal "Free Army" shelling of Taldou on the same day as the massacres there.

And whatever they wrote on the walls, we know from "the witnesses" that the killers wrote Alawite slogans on their own foreheads. (two months after the "Free Army" received spiritual approval from certain Imams to kill Alawite families, if it was done with warning - see MEMRI/Jihad Watch on that)

Here's the shelling perp's lost Khaffiyeh / head-scarf again.

Those are the hardcore pages, aren't they? Plus this one.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The truth is the insurgency can ill afford a massacre on it's hands. The insurgency is badly in need of assistance. The insurgency is up against a large military machine which is backed by 3 other large military machines.

But the insurgents might be that stupid. And the regime might be that stupid, and has a history of being that stupid, as do it's supporters.

I never did respond to this, but I remembered it and came back.

How on Earth could the rebels ever get a massacre on THEIR hands, other than admitting to it AND having some undeniable smoking gun proof? Even then, most people would presume the proof was faked and the confession coerced. If it'sa massacre of soldiers, we could buy it. If it's blowing up a hospital, we can buy it, if there are soldiers inside, and we can ignore who else was. We can plead them to middlingly horrible crimes and then assume that's the worst it gets, as it's the worst we'll accept.

But if whole families including little kids are purposefully killed with guns and blades and total cruelty, no way. Even if it comes during the first major opposition offensive in Taldou, with Kofi Annan on his way for a big meeting that would turn into a pressure-the-government-over-its-massacre session, with strangers perhaps from overseas included among the 6-800 attackers, with some of them seen - on video - firing machine guns and RPGs all over town, smoke seen billowing from the same places the non-rebel witnesses say the attackers burned (and the rebels don't mention), with at least two, probably all five security posts overrun and torched, with no clear sign of shelling but lots that someone like Tripoli's or Sirte's "liberators" rolled through Taldou, graffiti over one killed and left-behind family telling the Syrian people Free Army rulez!, and with the government forces seen struggling to regain control in the morning.

Even then, no way. There were alleged witnesses and miracle survivors, many, many of them, whom the rebels pushed forward, and they said otherwise in cartoonish and widely conflicting ways. They must be right that it was the Army letting in the Alawites. We in the West do not support evil, and we do support the rebels in Houla/Taldou and everywhere in Syria, so they simply cannot be evil like that.

Even if they are.

 

[Darth Rotor]

So, are they all dead yet?

 

[Caustic Logic]

So, are they all dead yet?

Are who all dead yet?

If you mean the people of Taldou, no, about 108 of them were massacred, then there up until mid-September there was more fighting and more smaller massacres/alleged shelling episodes we don't have sorted out. Between all of it, parts of the city (those attacked on May 25 especially) are now completely vacated ghost towns the Houla rebels walk around filming on a near-daily basis. The majority will have been made refugees.

If you mean the attackers, some of them are. CE has the source on it, but the guy that reportedly fired the first mortar round at the "freedom circle" checkpoint at "about 1:30 PM," was shot then in the leg but evacuated, healed, and was recently reported killed in fighting in the Houla area along with quite a few co-horts. But in most cases, we don't have enough intel to say.

Also, we can't prove the mortar attack claim with video evidence, but we do have a video, two actually, from the same attack locale and time as described by the pro-government witness, "Arifah," who made the claim. (explained here) She said it was around 1:30 pm the attack commenced, apparently from the northwest. The sunlight angle seen on video suggests rebels were firing machine guns at least from a certain spot NW of the checkpoint, towards the checkpoint, somewhere in the range of 1:05-1:40 PM, likely about the middle. The date's not 100% but for the title saying battle for freedom circle (won on May 25 and maybe other days) and the total line-up of actions, place, and time. We see another rebel injured and carried away. Another protester wounded, not necessarily killed. But Arifah's been corroborated, despite the nonsense reasons the UN's investigators gave to presume she was lying (de-bunked here).

Little-known fact (pointed at many here but not at DR): physical reality is not democratic. I don't care how many people believe something, they could all be wrong, per the physical truth. Luckily for some, that only matters so much. That majority can, properly organized and controlled, do a lot even if they're wrong.

 

[Caustic Logic]

And hey,why not more ignored precision in documenting forbidden reality? We just got another video analysis under our belt(s) that really helps.

Our star witness "Arifah" said this about the National Hospital in Taldou:

Then after taking over the checkpoint they stole the weapons and ammo which were in it, took these to another area, and began distributing them amongst themselves. Then they immediately set fire to the checkpoint, nearby hospital and the woods behind it, completely burning down the trees.

It's been reported the army had a presence there, maybe part to guard the place, maybe part to make it so they couldn't be attacked without a war crime being committed. "Arifah" says the hospital was attacked, and a couple other known witnesses support that.

Other than the video discussed below, can anyone find what the rebels, or their provided witnesses, have ever said about the hospital? Or the UN's investigators or anyone else who's taken their side? Did the army retain control there, or was it overrun and torched like the SANA-provided regime-coerced liar said?

Here's what the video record says.
The hospital, burning
See the graphic there to satisfy yourself what we're seeing in that strangely-named rebel video. National Hospital, dead on, from the west, pouring smoke. A rare view indeed. Most opposition videos know not show that. It's saved. It seems the main building is what's really smoking, and the trees seem to be intact here around sunset. Maybe they were burned down later, maybe "Arifah" is a liar or mistaken about the trees. But she was right about the hospital, either by speaking the truth or by coincidence, or whatever.

Previous finding from the NNE, smoke on this scale, same app. time, on a line with the hospital. Between the two, it's triangulated and undeniable. Someone ignited the hospital on May 25, and we're supposed to have accepted that that was a lie.

Front page both are or will be worked into with other stuff in context: Houla, May 25: Who Was in Control?

On the new video find, thanks to Petri: Its title translates "Hula heavy shelling of the city," in an apparent mix-up with another video from the same uploader/same day, same app. time (but diff. location I think), "Hula, targeting the hospital." Carried over, that title suggests the army attacked the hospital, apparently with shelling from the forward base the camera pans up to, as all rebel videos down there always do.

Got the other one analyzed, with too much confusion about location, but main things is is shows 'some guy with an RPG' way off on the hilltop who fires one off in the direction of that base. Title should be the one on the hospital video, translating "Hula heavy shelling of the city" There was a flash, some smoke. Doesn't matter where to or from, it's another regime crime.

 

[Childlike Empress]

If you mean the attackers, some of them are. CE has the source on it, but the guy that reportedly fired the first mortar round at the "freedom circle" checkpoint at "about 1:30 PM," was shot then in the leg but evacuated, healed, and was recently reported killed in fighting in the Houla area along with quite a few co-horts.

Fayez Talha al-Ekish and his clan were mentioned by Musin as among the perpetrators and named by "Arifah" as "the man who fired the mortar at the checkpoint". On October 16, SANA reported him and other clan members injured in fighting, with others killed.

A unit of the Armed Forces on Monday clashed with armed terrorist groups in Taldao in Homs countryside, destroying 8 cars and killing all the terrorists inside them. SANA reporter quoted a source in the province as saying that the Armed Forces killed scores of terrorists and injured others. Terrorists Ahmad Abdeen, Fayez Talha al-Ekish, Diyab al-Ekish and Ziyad al-Ekish were identified among the wounded.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Ah, just injured. In fact, looking again at the name, not certain it's the same guy (just by that). At least per the subtitles on the posting I looked at (starts 5:46), she said:

these gunmen began by attacking a security checkpoint with a mortar round fired by a man named Saiid Fayez al-Okesh, which the law enforcement personnel noticed, prompting them to shoot him [in] the leg, and then he was rushed to a field hospital in Kafr Laha.

Could be different forms of the same name.

But as some will note, this is a SANA report and of course they lie and say ridiculous things like the hospital was attacked, along with security posts, by so-called "terrorists," who then did the massacre in that town. See their ridiculous battle video here and know the UN decided ONLY the northern two posts were overrun that day.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I noticed Hover Boarder has been promoting his parallel universe threads while I've been bumping this one. I'm inviting his feedback here.

From over there, the discussion I'm continuing:

Maybe you can make another dishonest video about Houla that doesn't show anything close to what you claim it does, and then complain about how no one is paying attention to how your personal views and collection of propaganda are fully contradicted by the only official investigation into the case.

We've sussed out the "dishonesty" as his having some different opinions of what the RPG rebel video covered above shows, and how it compares to OTHER, SEEN rebel RPG firings in Taldou on the 25th (and he noticed the third one I missed, citing only two, besides the three plus fired by that one guy). It's not honest to call a difference of opinion dishonesty, but understandable given the accuser's sub-standard video analysis skills.

But for the other half, I said:
It's not complaining, it's rubbing it in the cowards' faces, including you foremost, that no one has an answer for the growing body of good, often visually verifiable, evidence that the rebels lied to us about their sick massacre in Taldou. And most of us don't care, having only ever wanted an excuse to hate on Saddam Slobodan Gaddafi Assad, not real truth.

And he responded:

Of course it is complaining, and calling people cowards because they have already addressed your topic is more complaining.

Then after another thing, I banned myself from his thread to save time being wasted so much.

But here, let me add another layer and "complain" (point out) that the bolded is not quite right, in any meaningful way. I guess he meant it in a non-meaningful, technically true way. People have "addressed the topic," on review, mostly by saying in essence "what you guys are saying contradicts everything I've heard from, like, everyone. So however fancy it might look with all this logic and evidence, it must be wrong, somehow. I'm sure of it." Or, taking the more direct route, "you're a mass-murdering dictator-supporter, so you must by definition be a liar/servant of Satan."

What's been lacking is what people usually do a bit, when they can OR when it's worth it. Detailed and relevant de-bunks. So is it not possible or not worth it because what we're saying is soooo ridiculous and long-debunked, like the moon-hoax claims? No, people still waste their time there, so this is even sillier or older, I guess, despite the fancy video proof and the fact it's still happening and endangers millions.

Anyway, HB is wrong and I challenge him to show otherwise. Proof one: he will not be able to specify when and where any of the specific, relevant details we've presented have been de-bunked with anything remotely conclusive or even non-fallacious.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Ah, just injured. In fact, looking again at the name, not certain it's the same guy (just by that). At least per the subtitles on the posting I looked at (starts 5:46), she said:

Could be different forms of the same name.

That's the automatic subtitle feature of youtube which produces some comical results. Even more comical than unfortunately the translations from German on syrianews.cc usually are (are they really native English speakers?). In the much better quality German transcript (still translated/transliterated from Arabic to Russian to German) it's consistantly "Said Fayez Talha Al-Iksh" and the "Al-Iksha-Clan", which is close enough to SANA's "Fayez Talha al-Ekish" and the other two names to make that a definitive match.

 

[Caustic Logic]

That's the automatic subtitle feature of youtube which produces some comical results. Even more comical than unfortunately the translations from German on syrianews.cc usually are (are they really native English speakers?). In the much better quality German transcript (still translated/transliterated from Arabic to Russian to German) it's consistantly "Said Fayez Talha Al-Iksh" and the "Al-Iksha-Clan", which is close enough to SANA's "Fayez Talha al-Ekish" and the other two names to make that a definitive match.

I wondered how bad the translation was. Youtube automatically translates video with text? Not from Arabic, I suppose? No, that makes no sense. Would be awesome/better than nothing. So many conversations I wish I knew what they were saying...

We need a full transcription/best source for just what "Arifah" said in both interviews, someday.

As for the guy, throw a Talha in there and it's 99.?% sure the same overly-lucky thug.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Youtube automatically translates video with text?

It does produce English subtitles for English language videos, yeah, at least it tries. Long way to Babelfish. Was searching for a good example of a failed attempt and won the jackpot by choosing our foreign minister. Activate English subtitles with the left button in the bottom right menu and read what our friend Guido has to say.

 

[Caustic Logic]

It does produce English subtitles for English language videos, yeah, at least it tries. Long way to Babelfish. Was searching for a good example of a failed attempt and won the jackpot by choosing our foreign minister. Activate English subtitles with the left button in the bottom right menu and read what our friend Guido has to say.

"He said or as sometimes slow" ... "steveomonkey" .. wow, that is some bad attempt, but way better than I could program for German accents and room reverb.

I thought I hadn't gotten that comment submitted and meant to do it again with a clever line added. So I'll just add it anyway. Ekish is a too-lucky thug who, like so many others, quit his day job at 24 Hour Fitness to join the new Saudi-funded outfit 24 Month Fitna. It looks now like it'll run at least a little past the planned 24 months.

 

[Caustic Logic]

UNHRC Commission of Inquiry, final report, Aug.15, de-bunks Arifa:

4. The witness said she saw the burning at the hospital area “when we passed by.” The area around the hospital was in government hands throughout, so it is unclear when and how she was able to reach the given location given the circumstances of the day;

How she reached it? Uh, by truck or bus or car maybe? Not sure what they're even driving at there. It's not an explicit denial the hospital was burning, but some vague doubt cast on the claim she could have been anywhere a place that remained in government hands. So she couldn't see it burning, so who knows if it was? And it must not have been, since she said rebels burned it and the CoI knew it remained in government hands.

More directly, here's the video:


(side-note of possibly great interest: He's filming here from the west, at just about the area on South Saad where all the Abdulrazaq families were just massacred. He's filming at 7:30 or so, when the killings reportedly stopped around 7:00. He doesn't seem to have filmed any of the Shabiha attack that happened so close by and so shortly before he was filming this)

Apparently the government has burned its own hospital. But this cameraman is clearly an opposition guy, and the hospital remained in government hands. So wouldn't it be "unclear when and how he was able" to see, let alone film, the smoking hospital, "given the circumstances of the day?"

And that's just one of the many ways official people in the West, and by trust the rest of us, have decided the evidence clearly points to government complicity and contradicts the regime's self-serving lies.

 

[Caustic Logic]

For those who'd like to see that RPG firing on the hill, here's the enhanced version and breakdown of what he's firing at. Heavy shelling of the city? It is upon that hill, so must be.


See also a charming comment at the video page.

A video on the burning hospital will be next.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The Burning Hospital



video page, again a drive-by rebel-supporter comment, no threat against me this time.

Also a quick correction-apparently the trees were NOT burned down, I think. See here at 2:51. Is "Arifah" lying then, or just mistaken? Just mistaken, I would guess, seeing how right she's been on all the other details that rebels deny but their videos prove. I wonder if she's still alive, and if so, if she'll survive the country's planned "liberation." Many people surely won't.

 

[Caustic Logic]

More info on the Abdul Razaq victims, or rather the places they were killed. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Excellent work! Absolutely to the point including the last seconds ... Allahu Akbar!

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, I really like how the end worked out.

 

[Caustic Logic]

New article by my friend Ronda Hauben
http://blogs.taz.de/netizenblog/2012/11/28/why-is-unsmis-report-missing/

Unfortunately, though, the result of the decision to substitute a biased CoI Report based on one sided reasoning and speculative conclusions, for the UNSMIS Report based on an impartial on the ground investigation, has significant consequences for the UN. The obligation of the UN is to be impartial, so as to be able to help resolve conflicts that threaten international peace and security. If instead the UN acts as the political proponent of certain powerful member states intervening in domestic conflicts of other states to bring about regime change, then the very essence of the UN is impaired and put in jeopardy.

(our work is mentioned in the footnotes, though not cited)

Also, we're unable to rule out May 25, or rule it in with certainty, as the date of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl36vZcu7ms
Posted July 14, supposedly part of a rebel attack on security posts in response to the Thremseh "massacre." They shout Allahu Akbar and fire in celebration on the high ground apparently SE of town, as at least two big fires burn in the valley below. If we could get the layout set (bad resolution, unclear), the azimuth would be almost exactly the same for both days (flanking the solstice). Similarities with May 25: At least two large fires burning in the town, apparently marking an unacknowledged rebel victory at a 297-degree sunset. (see here for discussion and panoramic image)

No reports of any violence either way in Houla/Taldou on July 14 (per LCC, SOHR, etc.). On May 25 of course violence was acknowledged... So was there an even more hushed-up rebel victory three weeks later, or is this the footage of rebel fighters reacting to the victorious gov. shelling that forced them out of town and allowed the horrific Houla massacre? If so, is it any wonder they doctored the date?

 

[Caustic Logic]

I decided to try Dissident Voice as the place to host my big article on the Houla massacre/battle of Taldo video evidence. It's a bit long, and comes in two parts. Just skimming it with bits of reading will suffice for most to get the point across.
part 1
part 2

repost all-in-one with comments

And then I should post this finally.