Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[Childlike Empress]

They're described as Shabiha who spoke with "an Alawite accent" (is there one? maybe). In reality, IMO he would have seen people with Syrian Sunni accents(??) and Libyan accents, and he would have died.

That struck me as well. There are regional accents, but certainly not "sectarian" accents in neighboring villages.

Many are still working on it, and the diplomats are still kicked out over this particular massacre.

As CL has hinted at already, we are working on structuring the research collected in this thread and elsewhere. We invited and had some feedback from people, but so far the two of us are the only active contributors. It's a Wiki called (by me):

A Closer Look On Syria

We think we have most sources of alleged witnesses covered, and so far it is as neutral as possible (for us to do). We have treated the two "narratives" told by alleged witnesses seperately. There are gaps in documenting (and items to check again) in both, and possible sources we missed to add, but it is already as good a picture that I learned next to nothing from the UN report.

So, all feedback, here, or even participating there, is more than welcome. It's a free mass wiki hoster so if you sign up, you don't have to fear that ghastly "pro-fascists" or "truthers" or whatever get your personal infos - no access. Worst that can happen to you is that the admin (yours truely) bans you for not being constructive.

I think it's a serious sign of work to do that this temporary UN report's release after more than a month and delayed can't draw any conclusions (and we think we know at least the direction of what they are missing).

 

[Caustic Logic]

That struck me as well. There are regional accents, but certainly not "sectarian" accents in neighboring villages.

True -the killers are all supposed to be from the neighboring Alawite villages, not even distant at all.

As CL has hinted at already, we are working on structuring the research collected in this thread and elsewhere. We invited and had some feedback from people, but so far the two of us are the only active contributors. It's a Wiki called (by me):

A Closer Look On Syria

We think we have most sources of alleged witnesses covered, and so far it is as neutral as possible (for us to do). We have treated the two "narratives" told by alleged witnesses seperately. There are gaps in documenting (and items to check again) in both, and possible sources we missed to add, but it is already as good a picture that I learned next to nothing from the UN report.

Making the link too big makes you look desperate, hon. I should know, I do it all the time hoping for traffic and maybe even input. Maybe that's why, I hear, there were no takers or even viewers for literally most of a day.

It's getting pretty good with or without much help or attention. But I urge people who care about truth, one way or another, to join and help sort out this very confusing situation. Second-best: follow along and learn, but I'd like to have more to follow than the two of us have the time and energy for.

We could especially use a few of those inclined to believe the rebel alleged witnesses and to pan the other alleged witnesses. We're being fairly balanced so far, but clearly my research is colored by my own bias and gut instincts I can't shake any better than anyone else.

The only firm demand I make is no malicious deletion of facts you find unreliable because of the source. As I've illustrated here (post #347), both sides clearly can suffer the same problems that would cause them to believe one witness and dismiss another. So we should do neither. The content of what's said is the measure, and should be considered. All are alleged, none accepted, all having accounts waiting to be ripped apart for inconsistencies, and to have them noted and perhaps argued over.

There are also other massacres and instances and issues, whole pages waiting to be created, if you'd like to "change the subject" from Houla and help solidify previous alleged abuses that were, in your opinion, done by the regime. I or CE or whoever might try to argue or even concede the point with further research, time allowing. I think a mixed/moderated voice across the board is the best thing to aim for, letting the emergent facts provide the real flavor and direction of things.

Sound good? Either way, the upside is I might be less uppity with this thread as I continue figuring things out there.

I think it's a serious sign of work to do that this temporary UN report's release after more than a month and delayed can't draw any conclusions (and we think we know at least the direction of what they are missing).

Conclusions are obviously overrated. I appreciate the middling amount of new information it adds. Looking forward to more useful insights and patterns emerging.

 

[Caustic Logic]

"I urge people," etc... oh, I can be so corny.

... but it is starting to take off. Consider our exploration of the Abdulrazaq family religious identity. We find the one allegation, however founded, and so far zero direct supports for their going Shi'ite. Sunni is confirmed by the - alleged - survivors themselves. Nonetheless, how the evidence comes together is at least vaguely troubling, especially given the sectarian strife promised if these guys are allowed to take control and exact "revenge" for their Sunni bretheren slain in this bizarre ethnic-cleansing campaign.

You know what might put a bit of a kabosh on this whole thing is if someone could just one more time call those of us ready to put the E in JREF supporters of fascist tyrants, or to again argue, implicitly, that anyone who talks to a Russian journalist becomes a liar you should just tune out.

When I tune in exclusively to what little Ali is saying and ignore all SANA/ANNA types, guess what? Exactly complementary problems emerge - he's coached and likely never witnessed any such event, the signs say. It starts to seem the opposite of what he says might be true, and what do you do when both sides wind up pointing, in their own ways, at the same basic truth?

 

[Caustic Logic]

An FYI for anyone following: Thanks to some quick work by a new friend in Germany, a new wrinkle in the Houla massacre enters the realm of websites that actually appear in standard web searches.

Houla Massacre - Eyewitness: “Fight For Us” and Other Things Ali Said.
http://www.syrianews.cc/houla-massacre-star-witness-reconsidered/

The UN Commission of Inquiry’s initial report, released June 27, shared their investigators’ doubts about a boy that’s clearly Ali. They spoke to him via Skype, making a fourth known interview, but with no details shared. They also reviewed the previous video, but not apparently the Guardian or AP interviews.

“In both interviews he blamed the killings on Shabbiha and soldiers of the Syrian army. In one interview the survivor stated that the perpetrators arrived together in tanks. The CoI took note of the age of the boy and duly considered his suggestibility.” (un)

The bolded part is something the corporate media and world leaders apparently never did. Considering Ali’s guardian and handler and his network, it’s quite clear who would be doing the suggesting and what basic form it would take. That geo-politically useful form is likely the reason it was accepted with no question.

Suggestibility is a type of unreliability, but only a potential one. New research shows that active story break-down is a more immediate problem with this alleged witness and survivor. Between only three publicly available accounts, the kid has managed to contradict himself to the point of absurdity, as explained below.

 

[JihadJane]

'Houla Massacre Update - The UN Report' - Media Lens


"""Media response to the UN report on Houla is a striking example of how the corporate system has evolved to channel and boost government propaganda claims on demand. As ever, counter-evidence, even from highly-respected sources, struggles to make any headway against this ‘babbling brook of [bull poop]’.

One might think that the primary concern of editors and journalists would be to provide media consumers with accurate, comprehensible information, not least by correcting earlier high-profile errors. But not a single editorial or comment piece examining the implications of the UN report on Houla has sought to do this. Most readers and viewers will continue to believe that women and children had their throat cuts, certainly on the orders of the Syrian government. Others will be simply bewildered by an overwhelming consensus punctuated by odd, apparently credible, but unexplored contradictions."""

 

[Caustic Logic]

Media Lens still haven'tfixed their lens.

It turned out that women and children had not had their throats cut, as had been universally asserted.

They said that because "Western officials" said so, and a BBC editor repeated it. But the facts are children were hacked up. See "the "graying' of the Islamist Houla Massacre" for my critique of this stupid little trick.

At least this time they let through a hint who else might have done it. This was good:

The former Guardian and Observer journalist, Jonathan Cook, emailed us:

'Yes, in fact, the Guardian's headline stating that Syrian government loyalists "may have been responsible" for the Houla massacre is simply preposterous. The narrative already promoted by the Guardian (and everyone else) is that they *were* responsible. So it should be blindingly obvious to the editors that the only *news* in this UN report is that the government loyalists may *not* have been responsible. Jonathan' (Email to Media Lens, June 27, 2012)

May not, indeed. No logic to a gov. attack, and the star witness for it can't even keep his own family members straight. Covering for a rebel crime.

I believe it is they who've been hacking up families since at least January (I just saw another horrifying "find" the rebels gleefully showed us then - "not a horror movie," a family stripped to underwear and tortured "by Assad's people," holes poked and skin peeled off all over their bodies, even the toddlers and baby, mother's right eye pulled out along with some brain-always the right eye with these people (at leat 2 or 3 instances at Houla)- shown off like heads on spikes for the people of Syria - chose the right side, now, or change religions if necessary)

 

[Caustic Logic]

From the link, BBC quoted:

‘Where the UN and the international community may have been seen as ponderous in the Balkans, they are viewed in a worse light through a Syrian opposition lens – impotent.

Yes, like Bosnia... They had an evil government bombing of the bread queue there
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...acre-was-propaganda-ploy-un-told-1541801.html

United Nations officials and senior Western military officers believe some of the worst recent killings in Sarajevo, including the massacre of at least 16 people in a bread queue, were carried out by the city's mainly Muslim defenders - not Serb besiegers - as a propaganda ploy to win world sympathy and military intervention.

In Syria, Homs, I believe, where the army no longer was, the evil regime shot dead a Christian woman's son as they just got their biscuits, back in December. See her weeping and wailing here, wishing the army was there, and Al Jazeera's heartless blaming of the event on the army, and calls for empowering the terrorists.
(NSFW - dead child, no gore)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuWsV79Uok

 

[Captain.Sassy]

So Wikileaks says they've got some juicy emails.

Are they overselling their hand?

From what I've read today, perhaps.

Most of the juice they have squeezed so far seems to be about some Italian commtech firm's dealings with Syria.

Maybe there's some sweeter nectar in there. Some kind of Baath party pentagon papers or something? Or something else?

So far, *yawn*

However, I do seem to recall certain people on this very site calling Wikipedia an anti-American organization that only sought to portray the West in a bad light to further its leftish goals

What now, brown cow?

Gotta stop drinking before I post...

 

[Childlike Empress]

Please do it on the other thread, capt'n. This one is specifically about the Houla massacre.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Aw c'mon... f'real? I'm only following this one and it's already got all my zingers in it.

Plus even if you're serious (and it's hard to gauge your odd teutonic humour over the net) this is related to the broader theme of media bias, which is what's most interesting to me. And obviously that relates to how things are portrayed regarding Syria, and so I put forward that these emails could potentially be relevant.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Agreed. I've strayed a bit off-topic, but with related/illustrative stuff.

Sounds boring anyway, as the Captain notes.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Aw c'mon... f'real? I'm only following this one and it's already got all my zingers in it.

Yup. The other one is worth reading as well, at least according to me.

 

[Caustic Logic]

No more investigations or evidence supporting the activist version of the Houla massacre the world is locked into treating as real. It's still down to the witnesses and almost zero logic. And the star witness is still clearly a fake. Again, for those who missed it, this is what happens when you get more specific here, as if the specifics matter:
http://www.syrianews.cc/houla-massacre-star-witness-reconsidered/

I believe the specifics matter.

More "Houla truthers" are emerging! Jurgen Todenhoefer: http://www.syrianews.cc/syria-german-author-todenhofer-met-with-eyewitness-from-al-houla/

I spoke the longest time with Ahmed, a young man from Houla (Hula). There, the most terrible massacres of the war happened some weeks ago.

Friends from the neighboring villages, with whom Ahmed had recently demonstrated against Assad, have invaded into his house to kill him and his family. They accused him that he had converted to the Shiite faith. Somehow he managed it, to convince his old friends, that he is still a Sunni Muslim.

Then the murderers rushed into the house next door, where his brother lived with his family. They have actually converted to the Shiite faith. They were murdered along with their children by the rebels.

side-reading:
http://pool.abc.net.au/media/fear-and-horror-syria-one-persons-account
http://www.infowars.com/shocking-videos-reveal-truth-behind-syrian-freedom-fighters/
http://gerarddirect.com/2012/06/19/us-backed-syrian-rebels-killing-christians/
http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/The_Killing_of_Sari_Saoud
http://www.4thmedia.org/2012/06/19/armed-gangs-force-syrians-to-protest-against-government-locals/

 

[Caustic Logic]

Y'know, it's funny how the people who support the activist/State Dept./Gulf tyrant version don't have any interest in studying the issue. Or even talking about it much, anymore. You'll dig around for a rebuttal of a moon hoaxer, but here there's nothing except maybe a passing taunt that Assad (and his millions of supporters) will be paying soon.

 

[angrysoba]

Another massacre in Syria has been reported with the apparent use of helicopter gunships and tanks. The same pattern of Shabiha militias following up is alleged to have happened after that. The overall death toll is being given as 200.

At least 200 people are reported to have been killed in the Syrian village of Tremseh, in Hama province.

Opposition activists quoted residents as saying the village was attacked with helicopter gunships and tanks.

Pro-government Shabiha militia later went in on foot and carried out execution-style killings, they said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18823303

 

[Caustic Logic]

Another massacre in Syria has been reported with the apparent use of helicopter gunships and tanks. The same pattern of Shabiha militias following up is alleged to have happened after that. The overall death toll is being given as 200.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18823303

I just heard about it myself and was on the way to mention it. Thanks for noticing and recognizing this as the spot to mention it.

Anyone able to say off-hand what important meeting related to the Syria situation is coming up in the next few days? This will complicate it, as such meetings have been complicated by massacres like this from Houla forward.

The above was a well-timed bump. Is it for real a regime crime this time? Or another poorly-concealed rebel one designed to spur pressure on the tyrant Assad? It's certainly bigger, according to the activists. How many dead soldiers mixed in this time? (questions in lieu of actually reading up yet)

One thing we might expect to see here is a stream of survivors over the next few days, all hanging out with the rebels now and affirming their version. All wives and children (of the rebel fighters?), no men. From the other side, the usual and likely true story that sick terrorists did it, and that loyalist and/or non-Sunni families were targeted.

Another thing I wouldn't be surprised to see, if they're learning: better witness stories. Another: actually hitting a friendly Sunni activist home for once (maybe he owes someone money, but otherwise...)

 

[Childlike Empress]

Exactly same pattern including the timing during an UN Security Council meeting, indeed. Death toll differs wildly from 50 (SANA) through 100+ (SOHR), 170 (documents.sy), 220 (LCC) up to 250 ("activists" to Reuters).



edit: yes, CL, the pattern is indeed THAT obvious that one can say "massacre? who's meeting?" NYT:

Initial reports of an atrocity in Tremseh came as Security Council diplomats were meeting in a closed session at the United Nations to work on drafting a new resolution to force Mr. Assad’s government and its armed antagonists to honor a cease-fire, allow the monitors to resume their work, and carry out a peace plan by the special envoy Kofi Annan.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Initial new page: http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/Tremseh_massacre

Researchers still welcome.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, exactly exactly. For purity of instinct, I didn't even read the BBC article. But this is the Houla tactic to a word:

Pro-government militias from nearby Alawite villages then moved in, they said, killing many more villagers and setting fire to houses. Others who tried to flee through fields were also gunned down, the activists said.

targeted families:

whole families were killed trying to escape."

That's explained by the gov. version, not the rebel one, that says they were targeted for being just some more Sunnis in an area where 90% of families were Sunni. [ETA: I mean in the case of Houla - here, awaiting info, both sets]

State media blamed "terrorist groups" who were trying to raise tension ahead of a key UN Security Council meeting.

The mandate for the UN's observer mission to Syria expires on 20 July.

Oh really now? Y'don't shaaay. And as CE adds, it was actually during, not ahead of, some other related meeting connected to that mission.

The video there: A quick scan, I don't see any signs of shelling, even the obligatory smoke bombs or stolen RPG fired by the rebels. None of the helicopters filmed, at least in that clip that I could see. There is a tank. How many of those have the FSA stolen anymore? At least that one. This tank was driving in a town rebel forces just took over, sounds like, which requires some kind of weapons.

Reports suggest the army was trying to take back Tremseh after it had fallen into rebel hands.

No, sorry, it just "fell" into their hands like a ripe fig. Protesters and stuff, probably.

In those hands, with those weapons, the rebels again failed to defend those certain families from the resurgent (and then melt-away) Shabiha thugs - all known, from surrounding villages, to be purged later along with their families to see how they like it.

Waiting on even more direct NATO help. So is it coming? Or do 400 have to die? Can we do that, the activist asks? Let me make a call to my guy in Dubai, says Hamid.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Initial new page: http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/Tremseh_massacre

Researchers still welcome.

Again, beaten to the punch. Good work getting a start - I almost tried, but not tonight.

Anyone care to help bring bits as they emerge and shape a useful resource?