Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[JihadJane]

Sensitivity aside, I don't want a blind person driving the taxi I'm rising in, and I'd rather not have issues of war and peace decided by ... people with an overly inward-directed self-reinforcing trancelike closed mindedness to overwhelming new info they can'tor refuse to grasp ... or whatever exactly she was driving at with the descriptor. Find a better one, if you want to help.

I dig your point, of course. Just have a counter-one.

Please don't denigrate people with autism with rubbish like this (hilited).

 

[Caustic Logic]

Please don't denigrate people with autism with rubbish like this (hilited).

Only by adduction. The actual disparaging was of the Western media and governments, described as autistic in a disparaging sense.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I apologize if I hurt feeling with my choice of words, i'm not writing in my mother tongue and did not intent to make fun of people with "disabilities/different abilities". What I wanted to refer to is the self-involved echo chamber of the western media.

 

[JihadJane]

Only by adduction. The actual disparaging was of the Western media and governments, described as autistic in a disparaging sense.

Indeed, and no better than using people's race in a disparaging sense, e.g. "Jewish western media", when using Jewish as a metaphor for miserly. The reflection goes both ways.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Did we know the Guardian boy Ali has a video? English subtitles. I forgot how young 11 can look. From "activists say" to "kids say the darnedest things in a war zone."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9KnjNxU8nI
11yo Ali Alsayed Houla Massacre 25/05/12 Survivor Tells his Story

Gets good at 2:07 as he shows the bullet graze on the back of his right hand. Tough kid, no tears or sign of emotion, other than eagerness to do this right. How he knew it was the gov't and not gangs:
the tank right outside their house, which was firing. And because they were Shahiba, in army fatigues and civilian clothes mixed, with big beards. No mention of the muscle man. Not that I really believe he saw anything like this. They stole 3 TVs, a computer, and a vacuum, he says.

Now, hasn't it been established his name does match with one of the families wiped out? Is it his real name, I wonder? He says his uncle was on Syrian state TV, which the kid watches, explaining Ali's other uncle(s?) and brother were killed by armed gangs. (see 2:41) I'm guessing this was a real broadcast, but here Ali exposes the hoax - he'd been arrested too, I think, clearly taken by gov't forces (no rogue Shahiba here) and made to lie on their TV channel. He probably also said they were an Alawi family and Ali might agree if pressed, but I wonder if it's true.

Most heartfelt part is at 3:09. This kid can see the big picture. Please watch, and spread the word. Syria's children need our help now.

Interesting video. There must have been more than one interview with the kid. The German article I linked to earlier contains the same name of the boy and a screenshot which looks like your youtube-video.

The Guardian article doesn't mention his name and contains more info about other victim forenames, he names his sister and brother f.e., not included in the youtube.

With those names I did my investigation into how his testimony and that of the ANNA witnesses could fit together. The Al-Sayed family is said to be a Sunni family targeted because of their allegance to the Government and the fact that one of them became a member of the new Parliament.

But that is not the family the names mentioned in the Guardian article belong to, which I found on the victims list linked very early in the thread. That's a different family (although they could belong to the same clan somehow), Arif, and was, according to the boy in the Guardian interview, targeted in the early morning of Saturday (when they were already false-flagging, as I've speculated) while the Al-Sayed family was targeted Friday late afternoon.

See linked post for details.

edit: the other main victim family Abdul Rasak, to which a majority of the murdered children belonged, is the one said to have converted from Sunni to Shia.

 

[JihadJane]

I apologize if I hurt feeling with my choice of words, i'm not writing in my mother tongue and did not intent to make fun of people with "disabilities/different abilities". What I wanted to refer to is the self-involved echo chamber of the western media.

Thanks. Let's stick to "self-involved echo chamber" in the future!

I don't want to prolong this topic but I'd like to add that autistic people are usually intensely sensitive to what's going on around them.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Had to dig a bit for what I heard about the SOHRs. Actually, it's still too confusing - one guy has two names, etc. Some comments here by Petri Krohn show a grip I never got. He thinks they're both fake groups run by the Syrians. I don't know. If so, for either, they should make it clearer and deliver the punchline before it's too late.

In one post he links to an informative and reasonably objective article: The Syrian Observatory: The Inside Story. According to this, our good doctor was caught in a lot of lies and seems to be a plain hoaxer. In the recent context, why would he treat the muscle guys if he is a pathologist? The other SOHR seems to be a bit more credible, although as the article describes their stated methodology remains questionable - partly due to the nature of what they are doing. Certainly that one-man-and-his-secretary outlet also doesn't deserve the huge credit they get from the media and western organizations.

Your friends theory that both SOHR's are propaganda outlets of the Syrian Government seems totally implausible to me, given how their reportings shape the picture the western observer gets.

One site which openly puts names to their counts and daily reports is this one, which seems relatively objective although judged by the flag not on "rebel" side - they report the casualties and related accusations of "both" sides.

 

[Childlike Empress]

We've seen Hermann's rebuttal to the critics. Now here's his new fascist-supporting fringe media admirer John Rosenthall's rebuttal.
http://pressenza.com/npermalink/syria-houla-massacre-revisited
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/302998/houla-massacre-redux-john-rosenthal#

Good rebuttal to a very weak critique missing the point and using guilt by association. If Thierry Meyssan wouldn't exist, one would have to invent him, eh? In the older thread on the UN vetos I cited the mother from Qara after I found her website totally independent of any Meyssan interviews, I think it was over an article from the Vatican news agency FIDES.

And if we would want to turn the guilt-by-association around, which Rosenthal didn't do: Hahaha, you're working for Middle East Forum, Daniel Pipes' "think-tank"!

 

[Toontown]

Toontown and Virus.

Yew rang?

What? Now you're trying to sell it that I buy any of the clown-poo you, CE, and CL are selectively offering up? Trust me on this: I don't buy any of the clown poo you scoop up, irrespective of which side of the argument it's on.

OK, I"ll admit to having been uncertain for a while as to whether CNN is more or less credible than you lot and your sources...

...nah. Not really. I jest. Between you lot and CNN, it's CNN, hands down.

 

[Caustic Logic]

To Autistic people and allies who've taken offense: Apologies for my part trying to discern what the wrongly-applied descriptor meant in this case. My social skills are a bit lacking. Sometimes I think I have a touch of Autism, Asperger's type.

To Toontown:
The crap in question is that offered by the Daily Fail with their bodybuilder pictures. Is it true or untrue you buy that? Believe, proudly, I suppose, as with alll the other war-mongering corporate media outlets?

Interesting video. There must have been more than one interview with the kid. The German article I linked to earlier contains the same name of the boy and a screenshot which looks like your youtube-video.

The Guardian article doesn't mention his name and contains more info about other victim forenames, he names his sister and brother f.e., not included in the youtube.

With those names I did my investigation into how his testimony and that of the ANNA witnesses could fit together. The Al-Sayed family is said to be a Sunni family targeted because of their allegance to the Government and the fact that one of them became a member of the new Parliament.

But that is not the family the names mentioned in the Guardian article belong to, which I found on the victims list linked very early in the thread. That's a different family (although they could belong to the same clan somehow), Arif, and was, according to the boy in the Guardian interview, targeted in the early morning of Saturday (when they were already false-flagging, as I've speculated) while the Al-Sayed family was targeted Friday late afternoon.

See linked post for details.

edit: the other main victim family Abdul Rasak, to which a majority of the murdered children belonged, is the one said to have converted from Sunni to Shia.

Ah... this is interesting and I need to get a better handle on it. Al-Sayed, Sunni but loyal, except according to Ali and the others. I did review Chulov's interview, running quite close to this version, except I think he says there his brother and uncle were killed right there instead of taken. And I was wrong he survived two massacres-the other house he ran to was his uncle's, who talked to the soldiers, as if freindly, as they asked him who they had just killed, as if he knew but they didn't, as if he told them to do it. And THEN he went on TV saying it was armed gangs, and Ali the 8-year-old 11-year-old was able to catch both ends of it.

Convenient.

Ali's uncle is, I presume, the one who just won election on May 24 (that I picked up in a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD0PA0BxNAQ&t=3m35s

Some statement on the rebel attitude towards democracy?

So this is all supposed to be the same family, but I guess there are different versions of it suffering multiple fates and divisions. Needs more work, some of it probably later today.

Other points,same... must go buy new food now.

 

[Toontown]

To Toontown:
The crap in question is that offered by the Daily Fail with their bodybuilder pictures. Is it true or untrue you buy that? Believe, proudly, I suppose, as with alll the other war-mongering corporate media outlets?

Haven't read it, but aside from my not being a big fan of British media in general, tabloids in particular, and British street ideology specifically:

The fact that Jihad Jane, based on zero input from me, said I buy it is two strikes against it on that account alone.

The fact that you want me to buy it so I can be your poster boy for your "war-mongering corporate media" indoctrinational rhetoric is strike three.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Haven't read it, but aside from my not being a big fan of British media in general, tabloids in particular, and British street ideology specifically:

The fact that Jihad Jane, based on zero input from me, said I buy it is two strikes against it on that account alone.

The fact that you want me to buy it so I can be your poster boy for your "war-mongering corporate media" indoctrinational rhetoric is strike three.

Nope, you read me wrong. First, I was clarifying the misunderstanding, second, hoping to challenge you into agreeing with us that it's apparently a bunch of crap made up by the second-tier SOHR knock-off thing. I like reaching agreements where possible. But until you give it a review, it's probably best to just leave it unsure - but panned by your fellow forum members AND a British alarmist tabloid take, so not likely to be real great...

And if it's crap, Assad's baby-killing Alawite muscle-men remain mysterious and not reliably "exposed' yet.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm not familiar with her stance on that. Perhaps her mind isn't keen on all levels. But on analyzing the UN's manipulation into supporting imperialist wars by the West, in Libya and Syria, she's done some good stuff.

The thing is it's the same mind-set that sees conspiracies in 9/11 that also sees conspiracies in the UN supporting "imperialist wars by the West". It goes hand in hand.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The thing is it's the same mind-set that sees conspiracies in 9/11 that also sees conspiracies in the UN supporting "imperialist wars by the West". It goes hand in hand.

It can, sure. I mean, I had that "bad feeling" about 9/11, and took some of the CTclaims seriously for a bit. But there is a differential when it comes to evidence. Anyway, it's a side-point I don't have more time for. This too is about the evidence, specifically for how big the "if" in the OP title really is.

 

[Virus]

Your "evidence" comes from the brutal totalitarian state doing the killing. Were you born yesterday?

 

[Caustic Logic]

I really do ... appreciate, that's the word ... Virus' contributions. I think he gets at the heart of things a lot of other poster's feel, with less dancing around. It can he helpful.

Anyway, "pretending" to do some research, I took the lady in the video who said
“They also killed people from the Abdulrazak family, ten persons, they killed them because they support the authorities. Of Al-Sayed family, they killed the family of the brother of Abdullah Al-Mashlab, the 3rd person in the Syrian parliament. He was elected on May 24th, and the next day they killed his wife and three kids and his brother and his big family as well."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD0PA0BxNAQ&t=3m35s

Another Assad propagandist for sure. She's wrong to boot! The parliament election was May 7 [WP]. Outsiders don't know that unless they look it up. The US called it "bordering on ludicrous," (see WP, and I'm not sure why the table there is blank) but it reportedly brought in the first ever coalition government with all opposition parties willing to participate (see below).

The SNC abstained on a platform of war only for Syria. (Or abject surrender, as demanded) So yeah, it didn't have the full spectrum.

And the lady would seem wrong. Nothing happened like that on May 24. Except the parliament so elected being sworn-in and electing speakers, and preparing to chart their way through the crisis. No Western media coverage of this ludicrous event I noticed. Chinese news was there.
http://english.cntv.cn/program/asiatoday/20120524/122858.shtml

Then, the next day ...

This kind of error, confusing starting work with being elected, is natural and if anything lends credibility and realism to the witness. Further investigation into this is warranted.

Was there a Mashlab elected to some high position? I think this Al-Mashlab appeared on state TV and said armed gangs killed his wife and children and his brother's larger family. I'd like to see the video if so. It would be another ringing denunciation of Assad's reform and democratization process, another obstacle to war and a full deep-till turnover of the whole country favored by the "pro-democracy activists" and their allies.

But it's bald propaganda, according to his apparent alleged nephew Ali Al-Sayed (from a big family mostly killed). He has his uncle on state TV the 26th saying armed gangs dunnit. But Ali himself, despite surviving the up-close slaughter, also witnessed his uncle hobnobbing with the Shahiba as if he had sent them.

Celebrating his swearing-in by having while whole traitorous family slaughtered?! This kind of maniac elected? Oh, we're past ludicrous now. About to time to call the whole charade off, huh? Only one thing will end the bloodshed, and that'll take years after the first NATO bomb falls, so we better get to it.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Your "evidence" comes from the brutal totalitarian state doing the killing. Were you born yesterday?

'Both sides' are lying. For whatever reason our media seems to only cast aspersions on information coming from the Syrian government or from Russia.

The Esprit de Corps article is interesting. It points out how false allegations of barbaric crimes have been used time and time again to justify war.

Yet somehow despite this history (and recent history too, such as what happened in Libya) any skepticism about the latest round of claims gets derided as 'conspiracy theory' or 'pro-fascism'.

 

[Virus]

How about the history of Stalinist police states staying in power for decades by lying, killing and feeding disinformation into the West through useful, duped idiots?

Syria learned from the best.

 

[JihadJane]

Some interesting historical context in this article:

'Russia and China Mull Syria ... and Saudi Arabia'

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Some interesting historical context in this article:

'Russia and China Mull Syria ... and Saudi Arabia'

Interesting piece.

Here's something I found today:

As regards Sunni members of Mr Assad's Shabiha, the FSA has a simpler tactic. "There are many cases of Sunni joining the Shabiha in Aleppo," Haji al-Saleh noted. "There are two main Sunni families there, the Bari and Baqqarah, who have been supporting the regime. But now we've killed the heads of both families the situation is improving. Many Shabiha are coming to us to lay down their weapons."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-syria-slaughter/story-fnb64oi6-1226399120730