Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

In the beginning the world was perfect but after the fall everything was cursed.
That is a funny thought, everything was perfect but then everything became imperfect. What makes you think your so-called god got heaven right when it couldn't get things right on earth. Once again the fallen angel thing for one.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Let's back up a bit. Creation is true and when God created Adam from the earth he breathed life into him. Adam at that point was perfect without sin. Then God created Eve. Both were perfect and sinless, and they had fellowship with God.
Then the serpent came tempted Eve and the rest is history. How can we blame God for that?
Who made the serpent, Adam, Eve, no not them. In you story your so-called god made the serpent, and knowing everything according to you religion, knew what would happen but made the serpent anyway. I wonder what stuff this so-called god screwed up in so-called heaven.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Let's back up a bit. Creation is true and when God created Adam from the earth he breathed life into him. Adam at that point was perfect without sin. Then God created Eve. Both were perfect and sinless, and they had fellowship with God.
Then the serpent came tempted Eve and the rest is history. How can we blame God for that?

How can you not, after all he's the parent. My son is likewise perfect and without sin. He's too young to understand the difference between good and bad. Now I know that there are some christians who would say that my son is an unsaved sinner who if he dies tommorrow will burn for eternity for all his sins. However, I will assume that you are not so inclined, and prepared to accept that the innocence of a child is a close analogy to the state of grace Adam and Eve enjoyed in that creation myth you hold to be true. In this analogy his Mother and I play the role of God. We are almighty and with wisdom far beyond his ken. We need an analogy for the tree of knowledge. This shall be the cleaning cupboard. It's contents could well be calamatous for my little boy. If he consumes of the fruit of the cleaning cupboard then he shall surely die.

Here's where God and I differ. God simply told Adam not to eat the fruit. I've told my little creation not to even play with the contents of the cupboard he knows what's in there from when he sees the stuff in use. I wouldn't even mention the possibility of drinking the stuff or showing him how to open the childproof top, but I've also I told not to even open the cupboard. I've ringfenced the danger. I'm not omniscient but if I happend to be watching whilst he disobeyed either rule I'd intervene immediately before any harm was done. I've also got a lock for the cabinet.

I don't count myself as extraordinariliy wise, certainly not omniscient but I do know that there's a risk here and how to mitigate it. This God being is supposed to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, watching over us at all times and looking out for us and yet performs worse than me in this respect. How can you say he is blameless. Surely if I watched over my son as he disobeyed my rules in a manner I could have easily have prevented either before or during the event, such that he irreparably harmed himself in the process, you'd be holding me accountable for extreme negligence. Negligent for not placing additional barriers in the way of harm and negligent for not intervening as it became clear what was about to happen. He sets himself up to fail and doesn't even notice what's happened until later. He's can't even find Adam and Eve when he's walking in the cool of the Garden, and even though that's not the behaviour of an omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent god it's still as negligent as if my kid had got into the bleach whilst I wasn't watching because I hadn't taken enough precautions.

It seems to me that you have a very low opinion of God to think that events unfurled in the way that they did without it being either his express intention or at the very least something he franklly couldn't care less about.

And if you were Eve do you think you would have been so rebellious?

Someone tells me not to eat fruit, someone else tells me I should eat it. I'm without knowledge of good and bad. I'm not sure, God knows what I'd do. (pun intended)

At that moment when Adam and Eve sinned they lost the garden and their fellowship with God because he cannot even look upon sin.

Horray look at me, I can do something that an omnipotent being can't. ;)

If you were Holy you would understand better but without Christ's holiness in you it is still hard to come to terms with. I see it pretty clearly because I have some insight to holiness through Christ.

I would contend that we're the ones who understand this better, more holiness merely supresses doubts rather than answers them. If you can't see the flaws in this story of yours it's are you sure it's because you have greater understanding or could it be that you've blinded yourself to them. I suggest you pray for clear answers to these questions.

So now what? Wages of sin is death and cursed is the ground because of Adam and Eves origanl sin. In the beginning the world was perfect but after the fall everything was cursed. It is what he had to do being God is Holy. It's sin that caused all the problems, can't you see? It was always meant to be perfect even though God knew what he would have to do to redeem it. The good news is he will make it all new again and I think we would all not want to miss that opportunity.

Taking his sweet time over it isn't he? Sounds a bit like a Microsoft production schedule. 7 days to cobble the whole thing together. Then 4,000 years before the first service pack and 2,000 years later it still doesn't work as intended.
 
Let's back up a bit. Creation is true and when God created Adam from the earth he breathed life into him. Adam at that point was perfect without sin. Then God created Eve. Both were perfect and sinless, and they had fellowship with God.
Then the serpent came tempted Eve and the rest is history. How can we blame God for that? And if you were Eve do you think you would have been so rebellious? At that moment when Adam and Eve sinned they lost the garden and their fellowship with God because he cannot even look upon sin. If you were Holy you would understand better but without Christ's holiness in you it is still hard to come to terms with. I see it pretty clearly because I have some insight to holiness through Christ.

So now what? Wages of sin is death and cursed is the ground because of Adam and Eves origanl sin. In the beginning the world was perfect but after the fall everything was cursed. It is what he had to do being God is Holy. It's sin that caused all the problems, can't you see? It was always meant to be perfect even though God knew what he would have to do to redeem it. The good news is he will make it all new again and I think we would all not want to miss that opportunity.


KK, your understanding/comprehension of biblical exegesis seems to be that of a ten-year-old. Have you read the comic-book version of the bible or something?


M.
 
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snip* Do you really think he wanted to have to suffer for the sins of man to save us? The cross was the only way to redeem mankind *snip

Really?

Let me be clear. I and many others have asked you questions before that you rarely (never) clearly answer, but what the heck-

An all powerful being and the only way to accomplish this task is to have him stuck on a cross....

(why can't jesus eat m&m's? They melt in his mouth but fall through his hands.... easter jokes are early this year!)

Pitiful deity you have there.
 
Omnipotence ain't what it used to be.

OK- I'm off to write a blues tune for banjo-

I fell off the cross and landed in the dirt,
all I had on was a dirty old shirt,
my disciples they left me,
under a tree,
Omnipotence ain't what it used to be...(c) Louis the 13th

back in awhile- need to work on more lyrics... and I don't play the banjo...
 
I think Ocelot already answered this very well, but:
Then the serpent came tempted Eve and the rest is history. How can we blame God for that? And if you were Eve do you think you would have been so rebellious?
I love how the whole good vs. evil thing falls on one moment at the beginning of history. The fate of all of mankind rests on one roll of the die. Heads - you can all live harmoniously with all the other herbivorous creatures! Tails - you have just unleashed a world of hurt, including but not limited to disease, death, earthquakes, volcanoes, murderous siblings, leprosy, and falling meteors. Oh, and spending eternity in a fiery pit of hell for you and all your ancestors.

One chance. Nice guy. And yes, I do think God is the villain in this story. He's the one who put the tree and the snake in the garden. He gave the distrusted snake more knowledge than he gave his chosen pets.

Would I be as rebellious if I were Eve? Probably. I think that most humans would be tempted, just as most children are tempted by something shiny that they're told they cannot touch. And the omnipotent being who created the two humans certainly knew this. He is absolutely to blame.

What I have never understood from the first time I read the bible (at about 10 years old) is how this sadistic, sick, evil nasty bastard could be considered worthy of worship. Honestly, if I ever found out for a fact that getting sent to hell meant being sent further away from God, I would do whatever I could to get myself a ticket. The only thing worse than being in that creature's presence, would be living in the presence of so many who considered him worthy of love, respect, or worship. It's a truly sickening thought.
 
ETA: Another question for Kathy. Why is Jesus's death considered one of such brutal suffering? He wasn't the first or only person to ever be crucified in such a manner. And is crucifixion really worse than being burned at a stake? Or worse than being tortured and killed by a sick bastard like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy, both of whom accepted Christ and are presumably up in heaven living the good life?
 
The cross was the only way to redeem mankind

An omnipotent being, and the only way it can think of to redeem mankind is through pain and suffering? Your god lacks imagination.


I notice that this has descended into yet another KK preaching thread. Wasn't she supposed to read and comment on an article? I suggest withholding further questions to her until she does.
 
Let's back up a bit. Creation is true and when God created Adam from the earth he breathed life into him. Adam at that point was perfect without sin. Then God created Eve. Both were perfect and sinless, and they had fellowship with God.
Then the serpent came tempted Eve and the rest is history.

All other silliness aside, if you're perfect, aren't you beyond temptation?

Leaving them susceptible to sin means that your imaginary god created tow imperfect beings.

Some creator.
 
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This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.1 John 1:5
So if God is light then he is not darkness but he did create this world and every living being which does have darkness so he did create it. Are we clear God is not darkness?

So if God created darkness he must have use for it. We do know as Christians that God uses Satan all the time which must make him upset but God is always in control. Even poor Job would not have gone through all that if God had not allowed Satan to do it. So what could it be God was trying to do with that horrible trial that happened to Job? I see it was a huge test of character and faith but it was a very hard thing to go through which I know none of us would like. Even Job's wife and friends tried to console him but they only made it worse. Still Job did not cave in and exalted the Lord so God raised him back up and restored him and blessed him even greater than before. How's that for a testimony to faith?

No, it is definitely not clear about the darkness issue. Kurious Kathy, I mean no disrespect, but have you read the Old Testament? What do you call advocating war and the murder of women and children, if not "darkness?" (And no, saying that every one of those children would have grown up to become evil pagans is not loving. What happened to forgiving 70 times 7 and turn the other cheek? and love your enemy? Why would he say that in the New Testament but act just the opposite throughout the Old?) What is jealousy to the point of great anger and violence if not darkness? And if God can't look upon darkness, how come he can look upon Satan? For that matter, how is that he could see what the pagans were doing?
 
An omnipotent being, and the only way it can think of to redeem mankind is through pain and suffering? Your god lacks imagination.


I notice that this has descended into yet another KK preaching thread. Wasn't she supposed to read and comment on an article? I suggest withholding further questions to her until she does.

A book actually. At least we are for the most part honoring Hokulele's request to stick to the topics addressed in the articles/book, but I have to agree it's probably a good idea to give KK a chance to finish the book. If that doesn't get her thinking, I don't know what will.
 
How did the snake TALK?
In Parseltongue.

But how did the donkey speak, and how did the Egyptian magi turn the waters of the Nile into blood, or make frogs rain all over the country?
 

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