Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

Well, if we are too stupid to understand this simple fact of god, why make any claims for anything of his?
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Which is why none of the people who say we're too simple to understand His ways never turn around 180 degrees to firmly state what He likes and dislikes...

...oh, wait...
 
Well, you pick an analogy that is obviously in your favor. You could pick a different analogy : A child is sexually abused by his father. When he asks "Father, why do you do this to me?", he is answered "It is for your own good".

See how easy it is to pick up an analogy?
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Yup. As I felt I spent the rest of the post explaining, I don't like the argument at all on balance, even though it sounds good on the surface.
 
I just listened to the sermon on that alwaysbeready.com site that presents evidence for the christian God. Allow me to summarize:

1
a. Argument from design. The existence of the universe demonstrates a designer
b. First cause. From nothing comes nothing, quoting, among others, Hume.
c. The age of the universe is finite, according to scientific consensus (Note that the actual scientific consensus of 13.7 Billion years is not mentioned for some reason.)
d. Several variations on the 'tornado in junkyard' argument.
e. Darwin eye quote, used in context, but curiously dismissing the
f. Argument from limited 19th century scientific understanding of the complexity of cells.
g. 500 Scientists sceptical of Darwin.
h. Newton, Galileo etc. believed in God.

2.
a. Fulfilled bible prophecies
b. The Bible is perfectly consistent.
c. The Bible is scientifically perfect, quoting Job on the suspension of the earth on nothing, and the scientific inaccuracy of the Koran.

3. Archaeological evidence for the existence of biblical events and people. Undisclosed evidence for the existence of Jesus is suggested.

4.
a. 43 extrabiblical references to jesus within 150 years from his death.
Josephus and the Talmud are cited.
b. The desciples wouldn't lie in the Bible, because people lie to get out of trouble, and according to church tradition, most of them died horrible deaths.

That's all. As most people here will agree: Nothing new, nothing original, nothing, well, at all, really.

ETA: Why can't I type the word 'suspension' in a normal way? It's a normal word, isn't it?
 
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Meh. The second article is basically just a summarization of the nonsense DOC has been rattling on about for 50 some odd pages over in the History sub-forum. Methinks Mr. Campbell is a bit of a plagiarist.

But if anyone wants to visit the actual arguments and rebuttals, feel free to visit that thread.

Regarding article number three, I have strong reservations about the movie it is discussing ("The God That Wasn't There"), and most of these issues have been covered in threads on Zeitgeist, astrotheology, Campbell, and the like. While I agree that the movie has serious flaws, that doesn't mean the New Testament is completely correct either. They can both be wrong.
 
Obsequious said:
What does this have to do with the post you quoted from Bob Klase? He does not mention Jesus.

Please explain how your post relates to what you quoted. Thank you.
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He was bringing up alot the major ways people suffer and die so I asked him to refelct on why Jesus suffered? Do you really think he wanted to have to suffer for the sins of man to save us? The cross was the only way to redeem mankind so if we can just realize there was a reason we needed a savior then the hope we find in him makes up for alot of the suffering people go through. It helps us to set our sights on the things above and then we realize how temporary this life truly is!
 
Edges said:
Did anyone else notice this? Kathy, are you claiming that you and your friends are saints?
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Yep. That is exactly the claim:

Even when my body dies and goes in the grave my soul will ascend into heaven with all the other saints where we will serve God. And as for saints we will not stand before the great white throne of judgement, but we will give account to Christ for things done in this life and this will determine where we serve in heaven. Even giving account to him is a big deal but I will not be condemned for sins as Jesus has forgiven me.
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Hokulele said:
OK, I am reading the first article KK linked and here are my impressions:

The article waffles between evil, pain, and suffering. The author seems to assume that the three concepts are interchangeable, and never considers the idea of intent (as several posters here have already mentioned).

In the very first section, the author addresses the article to two different groups, skeptics, and those who are actually suffering. For the people who are currently experiencing pain and suffering, he suggests potential evangelists to the following:




Hmm, nothing about actually helping those people. That sounds rather, er, evil.​


After that, he begins to address the skeptics with a list of questions and answers. I will address each one here:​



1) “If God is the creator of everything, as you Christians suggest, and evil is something, then how can you say that God is not the one responsible for the existence of evil?”​


His answer has already been quoted by a few posters, but basically he avoids the issue and states that evil isn't "something" and so claims that God could not create it. Well, God thinks he did:​

​

Which, of course, leads to...​

2) “How can you say that God is not directly responsible for the origin of evil, when God says in Isaiah 45:7, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things”? It seems pretty clear that God did create evil!!”​
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This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.1 John 1:5
So if God is light then he is not darkness but he did create this world and every living being which does have darkness so he did create it. Are we clear God is not darkness?

So if God created darkness he must have use for it. We do know as Christians that God uses Satan all the time which must make him upset but God is always in control. Even poor Job would not have gone through all that if God had not allowed Satan to do it. So what could it be God was trying to do with that horrible trial that happened to Job? I see it was a huge test of character and faith but it was a very hard thing to go through which I know none of us would like. Even Job's wife and friends tried to console him but they only made it worse. Still Job did not cave in and exalted the Lord so God raised him back up and restored him and blessed him even greater than before. How's that for a testimony to faith?
 
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Kathy, are you or are you not claiming to be a saint? Please answer the question. Are you seriously claiming you and your women's bible studies friends claiming to be saints?
 
Ducky said:
Kathy, are you or are you not claiming to be a saint? Please answer the question. Are you seriously claiming you and your women's bible studies friends claiming to be saints?
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I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[a] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength,Ephesians 1:17-19 says yes.
All born of the Spirit of God through Christ are saints. It's only Christ's righteousness in us not of ourselves. I keep trying to make this important point to you but unless your eyes can be opened to these things I am afraid you'll never understand it. Saints are still just sinners who fall down sometimes but get back up. We are sanctified through Christs redeeming work not of our own. Think of it as we are a work in progress. Jesus is the potter and we are the clay.
 
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K_K, you stated: ".. god is light..."

How can this be true if light was one of his creations?:boggled:

This can not be true as it is a paradox.

Therefore it is a lie.:jaw-dropp

So either light was not one of his creations, or the bible contains lies.

Your pick.

Proudnonbbeliever - your friendly neighbourhood antitheist
 
Hokulele said:
3) “The Bible says that everything God made was good. But good creatures cannot do that which is evil. Yet, God’s good creatures did do that which is evil. Therefore the Bible’s account of creation can’t be true.”​

The author's answer is the pat "well, free will trumps good".​

Hmm, sounds like the creation of free will is basically the creation of evil. (And I do not want to start another billion post thread about determinism, compatibilism, and libertarianism at this point. Let's just pretend that there really is such a thing as free will as Charlie describes it, OK?)​

And of course, this leads to...​

4) “Well, God is still to blame. He’s the one who made the people with free will.”​

The author's answer is that free will is just a tool, and God shouldn't be blamed for what people do with that tool. To quote:​
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Let's back up a bit. Creation is true and when God created Adam from the earth he breathed life into him. Adam at that point was perfect without sin. Then God created Eve. Both were perfect and sinless, and they had fellowship with God.
Then the serpent came tempted Eve and the rest is history. How can we blame God for that? And if you were Eve do you think you would have been so rebellious? At that moment when Adam and Eve sinned they lost the garden and their fellowship with God because he cannot even look upon sin. If you were Holy you would understand better but without Christ's holiness in you it is still hard to come to terms with. I see it pretty clearly because I have some insight to holiness through Christ.

So now what? Wages of sin is death and cursed is the ground because of Adam and Eves origanl sin. In the beginning the world was perfect but after the fall everything was cursed. It is what he had to do being God is Holy. It's sin that caused all the problems, can't you see? It was always meant to be perfect even though God knew what he would have to do to redeem it. The good news is he will make it all new again and I think we would all not want to miss that opportunity.





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Let's back up a bit. Creation is true and when God created Adam from the earth he breathed life into him. Adam at that point was perfect without sin. Then God created Eve. Both were perfect and sinless, and they had fellowship with God.
Then the serpent came tempted Eve and the rest is history. How can we blame God for that?
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God made the snake too. Shouldn't it have been perfect and sinless as well? How could a perfect and sinless creature, created by God, defy his wishes and tempt Eve?

And how did the snake have knowledge above and beyond that of Adam and Eve? (or are we going with the modern idea that the snake was really Satan?)

ETA:

Just to clarify my question about the snake, if the snake was not Satan, then how did it know the truth about the forbidden fruit? Where would it have gotten that knowledge from? And if the snake was Satan, then how come he (as Lucifer), being created perfect and sinless by God, was able to grow prideful and rebel? Do angels have free will?
 
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kurious_kathy said:
That power is like the working of his mighty strength,Ephesians 1:17-19 says yes.
All born of the Spirit of God through Christ are saints. It's only Christ's righteousness in us not of ourselves.
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So I was curious about this (as I first brought up the question) and, having wiki'ed it, found that this statement is true, assumint KK is a Protestant. In the Protestant sect, all those who have a relationship with Jesus are saints with a lowercase "S".

I keep trying to make this important point to you but unless your eyes can be opened to these things I am afraid you'll never understand it.
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That's a bit condescending. Not accepting something is not the same as not understanding it. I admit, I did not know that some Christians distinguished be "Saint" and "saint". A little research cleared that up and while I still do not accept the idea, I understand it. It really isn't that complicated to say "Having a relationship with Jesus makes one a saint."
 
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