Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

Sorry Hokulele I ran into a couple snags this weekend so I just downloaded that book today so I will need a couple more days to comment.

As for your above post I'll get back to you soon but it's late and I must get some rest for now. I would just like you to know when I went to my womans Bible study group tonight they prayed for me and even though I cried it helped as I know God hears his saints when we pray together.
Please do not undermine the power of prayer as it is powerful and this whole world is hurting so we can use a lot more of it. I believe if we as a nation would get down on our knees and seek God he would indeed hear us and heal our land.

What are we supposed to do with this?

Trying to engage her with reasoned argument is clearly going to get you no where. Multiple people have pointed out problematic elements of her own doctrine, but those will just get the response, "I know Jesus is in my heart, he tells me what's true." So anything in the Bible is irrelevant in comparisson to the tiny Jesus in her skull.

You guys can keep going, at least in this post we have someone else's writing to deal with, but you're asking an awful lot of our dear, dear friend, Kathy.
 
So Jesus was the original Mafia.

Even better than that - he didn't just take advantage of an existing situation, he created the situation in the first place. Or else someone is trying to make you believe it for their own purposes.
 
Just looking at the first article wherein an effort is made to show that God did not create evil. That's fine -- if I rap someone sharply on his cranium and he dies, that is a departure from God's will and I am evil. I am responsible.
Well... if one is in agreement that God created humans, then surely one must admit that He is responsible for us having a tendency to act this way in the first place. Some animals are more aggressive than others - a few are completely harmless to each others. Take for example the friendly baboon compared to the chimpanzee. Consider how a sparrow raises its own offspring, while the cuckoo carries its eggs into another bird's nest, essentially dumping its offspring onto someone else. Look at the loyalty of the dog compared to the independent nature of the cat. Simply playing the "free will" card doesn't answer anything when you take into consideration that different species have different traits.

Bottom line - if God really desires that we don't sin by raping, lying or gathering twigs on the Sabbath, why did He create us in such a way that we're prone to do these things? I realize there's the myth about the forbidden fruit of knowledge, but this still begs the question of

1. Why He put a tree-load of such disastrous fruit within so easy reach, and
2. Why none of the other animals ate of the fruit.
 
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I just thought of another thing... if God is not responsible for evil human deeds "because we have free will", then surely He is not responsible for good deeds either, again because we have free will?
 
Jesus (even assuming that he was a real person, and that he was actually tortured and crucified) suffered for 3 days. Millions of people have suffered much worse and for much longer- many people suffered much worse and much longer at the hands of the Catholic church. POW's in wars have suffered much worse and much longer. And of course Jesus knew it would only be a couple days and then he'd come back to life- doesn't really seem that significant compared to the suffering of so many others, much of it caused in his name.

That brings up an interesting point. According to many Christians, and this group apparently includes Kathy, the punishment for not accepting God is eternal punishment in hell. However, if you accept Jesus as your savior, then Jesus takes your punishment for you. This means that Jesus must suffer eternal punishment in your place. And not just your punishment. He must suffer the punishment of all the millions of Christians who have allowed him to bear their burden. Jesus must be suffering all the time, and millions of times worse than a single human would.

This means that if you do meet Jesus in heaven, he's likely to be in a bad mood.
 
This means that if you do meet Jesus in heaven, he's likely to be in a bad mood.


Well this is true for me, but largely because he will be extremely pissed off about the lax security of whomever they left in charge of the Gate.
 
Can I make a request of kurious_kathy that she also reads the articles that she herself has linked to? I pointed out in another thread when she said that those who don't accept Jesus can't be saved (go to heaven) that she was directly contradicting Charlie Campbell, who relied on biblical scripture to show that people could get to heaven without Jesus, that god has given everybody, no matter where or when in the world, the gifts of "creation" and "conscience." (Please don't think that I agree with anything that Charlie Campbell says, but I was just so surprised that Kathy didn't use his arguments to answer the same questions.)

I just have a sinking feeling that kathy's response to anything we say (see: Bob Klase above) will be:

A. But Jesus died for you! Is it fair that he suffered for your sins?

B. How can you deny heaven/hell/Jesus's suffering? We're all sinners!

C. I have faith that you can still be saved if you open your heart to Jesus's suffering on your behalf, otherwise you'll burn in a fiery pit of hell!

D. I'm suffering but I know I'm a sinner and that's okay and it's still not as bad as Jesus's suffering, or as bad as the suffering you'll face in the fiery pits of hell!


Kathy's big sell in this Charlie Campbell fellow was that he was allegedly an atheist who was saved, but from the several articles I've read, I'm calling shenanigans. If he wants to show how to argue against atheists, he should actually present his atheists more realistically. It's obvious he has no personal experience as a rational atheist. Hmmmm, maybe he was one of those "atheists" who believed in god but was angry at him, and that's how those rumors start that all atheists are angry at god.
 
Kurious Kathy, I read the article and think that Hokulele's impressions are near identical to mine, except I found the lead in to be extremely dishonest.

Why should the argument change just because the person being debated is or isn't suffering?

Why not say:
1.) God is causing you to suffer to draw you close to him.
2.) God is making you suffer to prevent you from doing evil.
3.) God is causing you to suffer to keep you humble.
4.) God is causing you to suffer to build your character.
5.) God is causing you to suffer to help advance the gospel.
6.) God is causing you to suffer so that you will praise him.
7.) God is causing you to suffer so that you can be more compassionate and kind.
8.) God is causing you to suffer so that you can better understand his love.
9.) God is causing you to suffer because suffering has caused the greatest good.

What if the person is a 7 year old cancer victim? Do any of these arguments work?

In truth, I think the reason for the change in tact in the lead in is because it's clear the his argument is highly callous and cruel. They don't make god sound good at all, and can only be accepted when suffering is kept in the abstract. All of the reasons for suffering are built upon rather insulting and belittling series of assumptions regarding the person who is suffering.

Each in turn:
1.) You were not close enough to god, so you needed help.
2.) You are prone to doing evil, so god is preventing you from doing it (this argument completely negates the whole Free will argument...)
3.) You were an arogant SOB, and are therefore now paying the price.
4.) You were a rather whiny weak individual and needed help to build your character.
5.) Well you are merely a tool to get the message across. Isn't that nice?
6.) While others praise him anyway, god felt you needed extra encouragement... enjoy!
7.) You were a jerk and needed help to become more compassionate.
8.) You are kind of dumb and don't get god, so he's making you hurt so that you'll understand.
9.) God made Jesus suffer, so what are you complaining about?


His arguments for suffering were shallow and do not adaquately address the reality that exists in our world.
 
As for your above post I'll get back to you soon but it's late and I must get some rest for now. I would just like you to know when I went to my womans Bible study group tonight they prayed for me and even though I cried it helped as I know God hears his saints when we pray together.

Did anyone else notice this? Kathy, are you claiming that you and your friends are saints? Doesn't it seem a bit prideful to label one's own self a saint? I'm open to the possibility that I misread that, but I'm not quite sure how else it could be read.

Also, like others, I'm interested in your response to what Bob Klase actually wrote as his argument is well-written and your answer does nothing to challenge the content.
 
OK, I am reading the first article KK linked and here are my impressions:

The article waffles between evil, pain, and suffering. The author seems to assume that the three concepts are interchangeable, and never considers the idea of intent (as several posters here have already mentioned).

<snipped for brevity>

God, as depicted by the author, is a shriveled, dried-up, old idea.

This god is a god without balls, so, of course, cannot be a "he."

Likewise, since this god does not possess a womb, it cannot be a woman, and being womb-less, most likely created nothing of note.

I tend to go for the "dried-up, old idea" theory. It makes sense on several levels. First, who are the most vociferous, fanatical backers of this god (apart from KK)? Old geezers well past their use-by dates, that's who. Like certain Mormon off-shoots, they want the "virgins" for themselves. Greedy old buggers!

Second, well, I don't think there actually is a second. It's basically a bunch of old farts trying to hold on to something they lost some decades ago. They want to be the intermediary between the people and people's fantasy of what constitutes god. Unfortunately, there are enough ignorant men and women around to make their success a certainty.


M.
 
joobz: the gist of the arguments is that God moves in mysterious ways. Similarly to how a toddler can't comprehend why his loving parents take him to a place where a bad man subjects him to what he perceives as horrific pain with a syringe, humans can't comprehend why God allows evil.

This argument works, to a degree. It's actually a kind of good answer. Except God is almighty, and I view the causing of suffering (for example by means of violence) as a last resort, and to an almighty being, there should never be a need for a last resort as He can just wave His magic wand and will things to be the way He wants them to be. If the rapes and murders and genocides of this world are there to achieve some higher purpose, then no matter how you look at it, God is doing it the hard way.

Though to be fair, there are people who have been through hell (natural disasters, accidents or what have you) who say later that they're sort of glad it happened, because it hardened them and brought them closer to their loved ones, or for some other reason. I can actually relate to that to a degree - the stuff I've been through wasn't fun, but it has gotten me to where I am today, and I happen to like where I am today. It also arguably has significantly hardened me and put me in a position to aid others in the same situation.

However, apart from the fact that people who actually lose someone don't see it this way at all, this whole 'pain to prepare for pain' deal seems a bit problematic, as in the end you'll need to explain why that pain is there in the first place. Let's say I walk into a room and punch one of you. You get a black eye, and the next day you ask me why the hell I punched you. I answer that oh, I'm planning to hit you in the other eye as well, and just thought it'd be good for you to know what you're facing. I also plan to make Wolfman give Roadtoad a black eye, and your suffering will help you ease his pain. Doesn't really fly when put that way, does it?
 
joobz: the gist of the arguments is that God moves in mysterious ways. Similarly to how a toddler can't comprehend why his loving parents take him to a place where a bad man subjects him to what he perceives as horrific pain with a syringe, humans can't comprehend why God allows evil.

This argument works, to a degree. It's actually a kind of good answer. Except God is almighty, and I view the causing of suffering (for example by means of violence) as a last resort, and to an almighty being, there should never be a need for a last resort as He can just wave His magic wand and will things to be the way He wants them to be. If the rapes and murders and genocides of this world are there to achieve some higher purpose, then no matter how you look at it, God is doing it the hard way.

Though to be fair, there are people who have been through hell (natural disasters, accidents or what have you) who say later that they're sort of glad it happened, because it hardened them and brought them closer to their loved ones, or for some other reason. I can actually relate to that to a degree - the stuff I've been through wasn't fun, but it has gotten me to where I am today, and I happen to like where I am today. It also arguably has significantly hardened me and put me in a position to aid others in the same situation.

However, apart from the fact that people who actually lose someone don't see it this way at all, this whole 'pain to prepare for pain' deal seems a bit problematic, as in the end you'll need to explain why that pain is there in the first place. Let's say I walk into a room and punch one of you. You get a black eye, and the next day you ask me why the hell I punched you. I answer that oh, I'm planning to hit you in the other eye as well, and just thought it'd be good for you to know what you're facing. I also plan to make Wolfman give Roadtoad a black eye, and your suffering will help you ease his pain. Doesn't really fly when put that way, does it?

Whenever I hear that God moves in mysterious ways I keep wondering why they don't just tell Him where the outhouse is.
 
I see you just moved into the neighborhood. Well, you see, there's some things you should know. I'm here for you. I can get and do anything I want arround here. If you need something, don't be afraid to ask. I have access to many things and nothing happens without my say so.

Now, I'm a peaceful, loving man, but you see... Some people here, aren't so nice. Well, I have the power to keep these guys from messing you with, but you'll have to well. You see, I've already had to sacrifice some of my time protecting you. So, I think it only fair that you provide me with some compensation in return. It's a nominal amount. consider it a minor tithe. Nothing major. Just a sign of respect you know? If you can keep me happy with those signs of respect, than I'll keep these goons from messing with you ever. However, If you choose to not give the respect expected, well I can't be responsible for what happens, now can I?

Now now, don't go crying about how and what is fair. I know you didn't agree to this arrangement originally. I know you hadn't been here when I sacrificed myself for you. But what's done is done, and you are responsible for these things anyway. So. our relationship really relies on you, Doesn't it? You can either play ball and be my friend, or you can choose to disrespect me. Free will being what it is, I really hope you choose the respect road, as that's much easier on you.

Capiche?

Joobz - this is a masterful summary of the whole "redeemer" scam, but it's in allegory form. Kathy will never get it, not even if you tell her it's a parable.
 
joobz: the gist of the arguments is that God moves in mysterious ways. Similarly to how a toddler can't comprehend why his loving parents take him to a place where a bad man subjects him to what he perceives as horrific pain with a syringe, humans can't comprehend why God allows evil.
Excellent. So the other assumption is that the person suffering is too stupid to understand god's reasons.

Well, if we are too stupid to understand this simple fact of god, why make any claims for anything of his? Are we not also too stupid to properly understand his message to begin with? Or perhaps we are soo dumb to even assume that there is a message.


This argument works, to a degree. It's actually a kind of good answer.
Hardly. It's actually a terrible argument as it equally negates any reason FOR god or any of god's views.

Though to be fair, there are people who have been through hell (natural disasters, accidents or what have you) who say later that they're sort of glad it happened, because it hardened them and brought them closer to their loved ones, or for some other reason. I can actually relate to that to a degree - the stuff I've been through wasn't fun, but it has gotten me to where I am today, and I happen to like where I am today. It also arguably has significantly hardened me and put me in a position to aid others in the same situation.
Certainly hardship brings people together, that's a survival feature of our species. But this doesn't explain why terminally ill suffer or give any godly excuse for it.
 
joobz: the gist of the arguments is that God moves in mysterious ways. Similarly to how a toddler can't comprehend why his loving parents take him to a place where a bad man subjects him to what he perceives as horrific pain with a syringe, humans can't comprehend why God allows evil.

Well, you pick an analogy that is obviously in your favor. You could pick a different analogy : A child is sexually abused by his father. When he asks "Father, why do you do this to me?", he is answered "It is for your own good".

See how easy it is to pick up an analogy?
 
Ah, but then the intelligent among us all recognize that father for the abusive, lying a****** that he is.

Kinda like god. So the analogy still works.
 
Joobz - this is a masterful summary of the whole "redeemer" scam, but it's in allegory form. Kathy will never get it, not even if you tell her it's a parable.
Masterful? I can't wait to tell my wife that I did something masterfully. :D

Jetleg said:
Well, you pick an analogy that is obviously in your favor. You could pick a different analogy : A child is sexually abused by his father. When he asks "Father, why do you do this to me?", he is answered "It is for your own good".
It's an excellent example and one that highlights the problem with the whole suffering argument and any attempt at excusing suffering.
 

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