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Can you clarify please? Are you suggesting the two (refugee groups) aren't equivalent?
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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4
- Thread starter theprestige
- Start date
I am curious where you think the food comes from that those people who still have a home with electricity and water and have a job can buy from the market that still exists close enough to them that they can buy food? Or the restaurant that they can go to to eat? Given that the IDF has enforced an absolute embargo on good entering Gaza except the limited food and water (and no fuel to cook the raw products), for months?Or that no stores exist. (they do, for sure). Or that there's no electric nor water in Gaza (there is, albeit limited). Or that jobs are non-existent and nobody is working for wages (how is THAT even possible?)
I suppose what I'm saying is --- of the 2.3-million individuals living in Gaza, are there NONE who are able to make-do without being given free meals paid for by others?
I'm just looking at this dispassionately, from a perspective that reveals how the GHF method is more practical and deprives HAMAS of their ability to control (and abscond with) aid distribution, and that more people are getting food due to these 5 sites than under the previous corrupt and patronage-based system of HAMAS and UNRWA.
(which is why the negotiations currently underway for a new ceasefire are stalled, since HAMAS demands CONTROL over humanitarian aid be returned to them again).
Smotrich attacks: Chief of Staff fails in managing distribution of humanitarian aid
Minister of Finance and Religious Zionism party chairman Bezalel Smotrich slams decision to continue Gaza aid: 'A strategic failure endangering IDF soldiers and providing a lifeline to Hamas.'www.israelnationalnews.com
I'm totally rejecting the suggestion that 62-million meals being provided is somehow "inadequate"
Independent reports do not agree with your assertion that Hamas controlled or absconded with aid. NGO are clear they had control of the aid not Hamas, this is Israeli propaganda not supported by independent observers. There have been attacks on aid convoys by Israeli armed Palestinian criminals.
Hamas has not asked for control of aid. That is Israeeli propaganda and a simple falsehood.
In response to the highlighted 92% of housing in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed by the IDF. So perhaps 8% may have an intact home, if it is not in a closed military area that includes 70% of Gaza. Less than 4% of tap water is potable. Israel has cut off all electricity supply to Gaza, so I don't think there will be any homes with electricity, power comes from portable generators but fuel for cooking or generators is severely restricted.
Your fantasy of Gazans living in intact homes with water to drink, electricity or fuel to cook with, restaurants to eat at and shops to buy food from is so utterly discordant with the facts that i suspect you must be reading only right wing Israeli propaganda.
Gaza: Destruction of vital lifting gear halts search for thousands buried under rubble
Families in Gaza were holding on to the slim chance of finding loved ones buried under the ruins of destroyed homes – but that hope is fading fast.
Israel has turned 70% of Gaza into no-go zones, in maps
Since Israel broke the ceasefire, it has declared most of Gaza as no-go or displacement zones.
Water is being used as a weapon of war in Gaza
Gaza’s water crisis has worsened significantly since Israeli authorities cut the entry of aid and electricity in early March, with serious consequences for people’s health.
Israel’s decision to cut off electricity supply to Gaza desalination plant cruel and unlawful
In response to Israel cutting off the electricity supply to a desalination plant for drinking water in the occupied Gaza Strip a week after it blocked the entry of vital humanitarian aid to the Strip, Amnesty International’s Senior Director for Research, Policy, Advocacy and Campaigns, Erika...
www.amnesty.org
Gaza: As last fuel supplies run out, aid teams warn of catastrophe
More than 100 days into Israel’s complete fuel blockade in Gaza, UN agencies still in the shattered enclave warned on Thursday that vital services are only “hours away” from shutting down.
UNRWA calls for immediate fuel delivery to Israel-blockaded Gaza before shutdown of basic services
The UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) called on Saturday for an immediate fuel delivery to the war-torn Gaza Strip ahead of an anticipated shutdown of basic services as Israel continued it…
www.middleeastmonitor.com
Remind me what are the views on turning Hebron into part of Israel amongst the settler community? I think any move will just be part of the incorporation of the whole of the West bank into Israel with expulsion of the indigenous Palestinian population. l hear the more right wing are now claiming both sides of the jordan as being part of a greater Israel, once the occupation of Palestine has been completed, I suspect that we shall see a move to occupy the East bank.
webfusion
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Palestinians are fully aware of the deleterious effects on the entire society from both HAMAS in Gaza and the P-A.
Gaza markets are open.
Fuel is available.
Water is flowing through pipelines.
Food supplies exist.
While I am not disagreeing that the war has severely curtailed the 'normal' functioning of Gaza, it must be recognized that the entire aim of Israeli actions at this point revolves around making HAMAS irrelevant and incapable of holding onto power.
It's working, thank you very much to IDF.
The Gaza Strip is about to undergo a change of major proportions, and not return to the previous paradigms.
Gaza markets are open.
Fuel is available.
Water is flowing through pipelines.
Food supplies exist.
While I am not disagreeing that the war has severely curtailed the 'normal' functioning of Gaza, it must be recognized that the entire aim of Israeli actions at this point revolves around making HAMAS irrelevant and incapable of holding onto power.
It's working, thank you very much to IDF.
The Gaza Strip is about to undergo a change of major proportions, and not return to the previous paradigms.
I quoted independent sources documenting that what you are saying is false can you supply any evidence that as of now, water (potable) is flowing through pipelines, food supplies exist other than aid (your claim is that aid is largely unnecessary), that markets are open, that fuel is available (ie available to the general population not just exists which could refer to tanks for the generators of the few hospitals left undestroyed by the IDF)?
webfusion
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planigale, I never made any such claim about aid being LARGELY unneccessary. My entire thesis was to point out that NOBODY is claiming that every man woman and child is requiring aid in Gaza. My question was merely, how many aren't? You don't know, I don't know. And HAMAS isn't going to offer details! Could it be many hundreds of thousands who are not in such dire straits and maintain their 'Gaza standard' (dirt poor) routines? Or, is the true situation (as my question stands) "is every man woman and child in Gaza eligible to be getting free (donated) aid and nobody there needs to pay for food anymore? TheWorld™ is now responsible for providing meals for everyone in Gaza?"
Water is indeed flowing, because the IDF has been engineering the new pipeline infrastructure that hooks up to MEKEROT (the Israeli national water carrier). Keep in mind that tunnels have been destroyed, covering kilometers of area, and as the IDF advances, it strings along an entire battalion of combat engineers to bulldoze and reconfigure the Gaza Strip. Including roads, electric grid connections & transformer stations, water pipelines (IDF needs water & power, too, as they dig in and ready fortifications so a ceasefire can begin, with troops in-place).
Fuel is sitting in million-liter tanks, the problem is transportation and distribution of it to the general public. Agreed.
What they have been doing is portioning it out in 2-liter Coke bottles.
Is Israel supposed to also provide free fuel for all Gazans? How does THAT work?
Water is indeed flowing, because the IDF has been engineering the new pipeline infrastructure that hooks up to MEKEROT (the Israeli national water carrier). Keep in mind that tunnels have been destroyed, covering kilometers of area, and as the IDF advances, it strings along an entire battalion of combat engineers to bulldoze and reconfigure the Gaza Strip. Including roads, electric grid connections & transformer stations, water pipelines (IDF needs water & power, too, as they dig in and ready fortifications so a ceasefire can begin, with troops in-place).
Fuel is sitting in million-liter tanks, the problem is transportation and distribution of it to the general public. Agreed.
What they have been doing is portioning it out in 2-liter Coke bottles.
Is Israel supposed to also provide free fuel for all Gazans? How does THAT work?
webfusion
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Missed this gem: "Hamas has not asked for control of aid. That is Israeli propaganda and a simple falsehood."
What we do know, from inside sources that are speaking to reporters --
The gaps between Israel and Hamas are narrow, a source familiar with the renewed talks told the (Jerusalem) Post.
"A deal could be reached within a day,” the source said. “The differences are not that significant — it all depends on how stubborn each side is and how much pressure the American president applies.”
A senior source close to Hamas told Saudi outlet Asharq that the parties will also discuss implementation mechanisms for the framework outlined by international mediators and backed by President Trump. The Hamas delegation will be led by senior official Khalil al-Hayya. He is demanding that all humanitarian aid be delivered exclusively through United Nations agencies—primarily UNRWA—and not via the U.S.-linked Global Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), which the terror group claims has become “a death trap and a source of humiliation and harm to civilians.”
(how's THAT for propaganda?!!! 65-million meals provided, not just sacks of flour! It's HAMAS being humiliated, truth be told.)
The photos of people carrying their actual dinner fixins' home are quite astounding. Smiles, barefoot kids holding onto their mom's dress, cardboard boxes brimming with a wide variety of food, including sugar, coffee, and 'ful' beans! Heck, even the left-behind cardboard boxes are being collected and re-purposed. There's now an entire cottage industry in Gaza of utilizing those thousands of boxes in some manner!
I've seen vids of food markets operating in Gaza -- a simple utube search will get you there.
UNRWA? That is code for HAMAS control. Everyone in Gaza knows that!
What we do know, from inside sources that are speaking to reporters --
The gaps between Israel and Hamas are narrow, a source familiar with the renewed talks told the (Jerusalem) Post.
"A deal could be reached within a day,” the source said. “The differences are not that significant — it all depends on how stubborn each side is and how much pressure the American president applies.”
A senior source close to Hamas told Saudi outlet Asharq that the parties will also discuss implementation mechanisms for the framework outlined by international mediators and backed by President Trump. The Hamas delegation will be led by senior official Khalil al-Hayya. He is demanding that all humanitarian aid be delivered exclusively through United Nations agencies—primarily UNRWA—and not via the U.S.-linked Global Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), which the terror group claims has become “a death trap and a source of humiliation and harm to civilians.”
(how's THAT for propaganda?!!! 65-million meals provided, not just sacks of flour! It's HAMAS being humiliated, truth be told.)
The photos of people carrying their actual dinner fixins' home are quite astounding. Smiles, barefoot kids holding onto their mom's dress, cardboard boxes brimming with a wide variety of food, including sugar, coffee, and 'ful' beans! Heck, even the left-behind cardboard boxes are being collected and re-purposed. There's now an entire cottage industry in Gaza of utilizing those thousands of boxes in some manner!
I've seen vids of food markets operating in Gaza -- a simple utube search will get you there.
UNRWA? That is code for HAMAS control. Everyone in Gaza knows that!
That is simple Israeli propaganda. No one outside of Israel (and right wing extremists in the US) believes that. No independent NGO reports this. It is not supported by independent journalists.
I note you cannot supply any independent sources to support your claims.
So I accept your premise that if potable water is supplied by pipes laid in Gaza to supply the IDF that means there is piped potable water in Gaza for Israelis, but not for Palestinians.
For those less familiar with metric units 1,000,000 litres in a tank is a one cubic metre tank, les than a tonne, not a lot for a population of around 2,000,000, who need fuel for cooking, transport, power; running sanitation water purification, hospitals. How long can a hospital generator or desalination unit run on a 2L coke bottle of fuel?
The legal responsibility for supporting the population lays with the occupying power. Legally Israel has to supply water, power, food and medical aid.
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webfusion
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So sue us.
HAMAS has gotta go. That is the bottom line here.
Palestinians are fully aware of the deleterious effects on the entire society from both HAMAS in Gaza and the P-A.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Hamas is the occupying power in Gaza.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
While it is true that all answers are responses, not all responses are answers. This does not answer my question.
With Hamas war crimes on one side of the scale, and Israeli war crimes on the other side of the scale, which way does the scale tip?
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I don't know which way the scale tips, but I do know that taking account of all the facts, as my posts at least attempts, is profitable when considering such questions.
Clearly, that wouldn't suit the reductionist's agenda.
Are you denying the fact that Jews fled or were forcibly expelled from the Middle East and Africa in the decades following 1948?
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arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
I'm talking about the current situation in Gaza. I don't know what wild tangential flights of fancy you're going off on.
Of the war crimes that have been committed in Gaza since 7 October 2023, whose war crimes have been worst? Israel's or Hamas's?
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Didn't answer my point. Stop ignoring relevant historical context.
I answered you.
Are you able to say with 100% certainty that Israel is not always going after Hamas or those aiding them?
webfusion
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In Gaza, we're noticing a growing wave of resentments, recriminations and dissatisfaction with HAMAS.
It's leading Palestinians there to a civil war, apparently.
www.israelnationalnews.com
and
www.jpost.com
It's leading Palestinians there to a civil war, apparently.
Head of Israeli-backed militia: Yasser Abu Shabab: 'Hamas despicable subhumans'
'Does someone who kidnaps and murders children like the Bibas family really have any right to judge others? These are despicable, lowly subhumans whose end is near,' says head of Israeli-backed militia, Yasser Abu Shabab.
www.israelnationalnews.com
and
Gaza militia leader Abu Shabab: 'No stopping civil war' against Hamas | The Jerusalem Post
This follows an earlier interview with Army Radio, where Abu Shabab denied working with Israel but added that he hadn't ruled out cooperating with the IDF on aid distribution in the future.
www.jpost.com
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Current narrative:
Israel forced Palestinians (some 700,000) out of their homes and land in 1948.
Actual truth:
Israel forced Palestinians out of their homes and land in 1948 (though Israel claims that some/many left in response to calls from the Arabs to evacuate before their invasion). In the decades following, some 850,000 Mizrahi Jews were either forced or fled the Middle East and African Muslim nations. Those Jews had been living in such countries for millennia (think of the Babylonian captivity of the 6th century B.C.)
Both the Palestinians and the Mizrahim have not been recompensed for their losses.
Historical context is relevant to current events in Palestine/Israel.
If my analysis (not mine, I'm just the messenger) is wrong, then challenge it.
Israel forced Palestinians (some 700,000) out of their homes and land in 1948.
Actual truth:
Israel forced Palestinians out of their homes and land in 1948 (though Israel claims that some/many left in response to calls from the Arabs to evacuate before their invasion). In the decades following, some 850,000 Mizrahi Jews were either forced or fled the Middle East and African Muslim nations. Those Jews had been living in such countries for millennia (think of the Babylonian captivity of the 6th century B.C.)
Both the Palestinians and the Mizrahim have not been recompensed for their losses.
Historical context is relevant to current events in Palestine/Israel.
If my analysis (not mine, I'm just the messenger) is wrong, then challenge it.
webfusion
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Poem, keep in mind that Arabs who left Haifa, and simply walked down the road a few miles, becoming encamped in Jenin, did not leave "Palestine lands" (as defined for centuries prior).
Other Arabs who crossed from parts of Jerusalem into Jordanian-held territory to the east, did not leave "Palestine lands" at all.
Yet further, Arabs who went into the Egyptian-held Gaza strip, never left "Palestine lands" (as that salient is also considered Palestinian, historically, despite the Egyptian occupation.)
Other Arabs who crossed from parts of Jerusalem into Jordanian-held territory to the east, did not leave "Palestine lands" at all.
Yet further, Arabs who went into the Egyptian-held Gaza strip, never left "Palestine lands" (as that salient is also considered Palestinian, historically, despite the Egyptian occupation.)
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If you are suggesting that there aren't in fact any real Palestinians refugees then I think you'd have to work a bit harder than that.
The Great Zaganza
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Not according to Israel, which occupies most of the territory