Freedom of speech?

[TurkeysGhost]

In the video clip, they cut him off in an odd place when he said they were going to beat up anyone who got in their way. Like right in the middle of his sentence, as if maybe the rest of the sentence needed to be excised. Gonna try to find the whole context, but I don't have twitter.

Looks like it came from toothless's social media accounts. He's constantly evading bans on multiple platforms and his accounts don't last long. You're probably going to have a lot of trouble finding original sources as the account has likely already been suspended.

It's Going Down (independent news) seems to have collected the advertising for this event. Hand bill advertised it as a "free speech rally" headlined by several prominent proud boys, who didn't show up.

https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/1317763812292874240

Event seemed to have failed because of some internal fascist drama, speakers all dropped out and are squabbling among themselves.

Calling the Proud Boys “Trump supporters” is like calling Hitler a painter— it’s true, but it misses the important details.

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1318080137485643776

Well said. Local news dropping the ball on the coverage here. These fascist groups will often put up a thin veneer of plausible deniability, but even a cursory review of the people involved and their social media shows what these events are really about.

 

[Bob001]

Over on the Riots, Looting thread, Suburban Turkey has posted evidence that Jack O' Anderson is in fact a Proud Boy. This likely accounts for the huge turnout among antifa types who already knew who he was and had enough background on him to act.

So maybe more happened at the event than we see in the brief video snippet that has you so exercised?

 

[Thermal]

Well then I see we've identified the problem.

More clearly than you realize.

Are you saying a private entity is unable to censor anything? Do tell.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Also we all get that "OH LORDY BE THEY BE TRYING TO SILENCE ME!" is a biiiiiig part of a lot of these people's personas right? Like there's a reason they don't want to talk in situation where people aren't going try to punch them in their stupid mouths.

It's half martyrdom, half attention seeking, with a sprinkling of "inviting the exact pedantic discussion we're having now" on it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Are you saying a private entity is unable to censor anything? Do tell.

Yes. Absolutely. I can tell you think there's a "gotcha" in there somewhere that will fortify your hill so you can die on it longer, but I can't see it.

Is there a Proud Boy Convention going on in your living room right now? No? Is that censorship?

 

[Bob001]

Censorship can be public or private. Twitter and FB, while privately owed, are widely available for public use, much like a restaurant is a place of public accommodation. A restaurant, being a private entity, can deny service to anyone in theory. In practice, it can be discriminatory. And you know this damn right well.

Twitter, Facebook etc. make their money by expanding their audiences and not making anybody mad at them. That's their incentive to allow pretty much anything on their sites, including illegal fraudulent campaign ads paid for in rubles. But they have no legal obligation to provide a forum to anybody.

 

[Thermal]

So maybe more happened at the event than we see in the brief video snippet that has you so exercised?

Well, duh. Of course. Maybe you're not catching this, but that's exactly what has me so 'excercised'.

When the thread rolled, posters lied to create the story. That's what I get pissed about.

For example, I asked you to support your claim that Anderson got 'mouthy', resulting in him getting punched. You went crickets. Because you made it up.

Now, we will see some posters painting ye olde bulls eye around those lies they made up. And the funny part is, they will think they got away with it.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's unclear at this time if Proud Boys are wanting to hold these kinds of rallies at the moment. Several of their more belligerent members are facing serious criminal charges and are currently in jail or on bail, and it seems like they may not get free reign to commit violence from city police anymore. Their cozy relationship with Portland PD certainly seems to have soured a bit, at least for the time being.

It's unclear what their path forward is at this time, but having boring do-nothing rallies or getting beaten up by the community doesn't seem good for their branding.

 

[Meadmaker]

Check out the opening post.

Ok. Fine. Going to the OP...


The group was holding a rally in defense of free speech. They were violently attacked. The OP was asking is free speech no longer acceptable?

Let's talk slow. The rally organizers were saying, "We want free speech!" The counterprotesters were saying, "Go home!"

So, what's up with that? Free speech is a good thing, isn't it? If someone wants free speech, we really ought to be saying that's a good thing.



Fortunately, this is a minor incident, barely worthy of mention. A few folks who had some sort of message about something involving Twitter and....something, were attacked by a group of people with nothing better to do than throw bottles at a few folks who had some sort of message about something involving Twitter and....something.

There is no actual, overt, threat to free speech in this country. Nevertheless, I think we should be vigilant about the not quite so overt threats. Nip those threats in the bud before they actually impact us in our regular lives. You shouldn't have to worry about losing teeth when you exercise your free speech rights.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The unclarity is (largely) the point.

There's a reason why the groups are always so much better at finding the line and dancing on it then actually staking an actual opinion deep into unacceptable territory. There's a reason the line between active participant and passive instigator is never clear. There's a reason why this is a constant, unending game of defining lines that keep moving.

 

[Thermal]

Yes. Absolutely. I can tell you think there's a "gotcha" in there somewhere that will fortify your hill so you can die on it longer, but I can't see it.

Is there a Proud Boy Convention going on in your living room right now? No? Is that censorship?

Instead of this wise guru speaking in ambiguous riddle routine, could you maybe just say what you mean? It would speed things up.

Anderson's rally was to purportedly to protest the private censorship on twitter. This is possible to do, and logically consistent. Agree or no? If agreed, why are you arguing? If not, why not?

eta: No, there is not a proud boy convention in my living room right now. If they applied for a permit for one, I would deny it. Because, as a private entity, I censor their activities within my control. If they picketed me, saying I discriminate against pussy hate groups, that would be their right. I would not batter them for doing so on a public street with permits.

Jesus Mary and Joseph, how can you not understand this?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Ok. Fine. Going to the OP...


The group was holding a rally in defense of free speech. They were violently attacked. The OP was asking is free speech no longer acceptable?

Let's talk slow. The rally organizers were saying, "We want free speech!" The counterprotesters were saying, "Go home!"

So, what's up with that? Free speech is a good thing, isn't it? If someone wants free speech, we really ought to be saying that's a good thing.



Fortunately, this is a minor incident, barely worthy of mention. A few folks who had some sort of message about something involving Twitter and....something, were attacked by a group of people with nothing better to do than throw bottles at a few folks who had some sort of message about something involving Twitter and....something.

There is no actual, overt, threat to free speech in this country. Nevertheless, I think we should be vigilant about the not quite so overt threats. Nip those threats in the bud before they actually impact us in our regular lives. You shouldn't have to worry about losing teeth when you exercise your free speech rights.

If you think the Proud Boys care about Free Speech, I got a bridge to sell you.

Right wing extremists lie about their motives. They've been doing it since before the Unite the Right (it was about a statue, if you believe the liars), and they will continue to do so.

The Proud Boys is a neo-fascist group that explicitly endorses political violence. Every rally they hold is to that end.

 

[Cavemonster]

"Freedom of speech" is an often-misunderstood concept. It means that the government generally can't prevent you from saying what you want or punish you after the fact. It doesn't mean that people who are offended by your speech can't respond with some speech of their own.

Disambiguation.

That's the LEGAL idea of free speech.
There are also moral concepts of freedom of speech on which the legal concept is based. There's room for a lot of disagreement, and I disagree personally with these protestors' model of what free speech constitutes.

But I'd wager most of us with some level of imagination could conceive of SOME level of squelching of the sharing of ideas by non-government actors that we would consider not ok.

Legal free speech is the first amendment.
Moral free speech is the general idea that we want a society where ideas can be exchanged and we recognize that a small number of corporations control a lion's share of the means for disseminating information.

Whatever your political ideology, if tomorrow facebook auto-deleted any posts that espoused your view, as did twitter and every other social media company. If Google decided not to allow emails to be sent that espoused your view. If a powerful consumer group organized effective boycotts to bankrupt any company that espoused your view, if all of that happened, I sort of doubt you'd just shrug your shoulders and say "That's the free market and consequences. I could start my own gmail!"

Probably you'd think there was something wrong there.

So I don't think these protestors are wrong that a value of free speech exists outside of the first amendment. I absolutely disagree with the specifics of their greivance.

 

[Thermal]

Twitter, Facebook etc. make their money by expanding their audiences and not making anybody mad at them. That's their incentive to allow pretty much anything on their sites, including illegal fraudulent campaign ads paid for in rubles. But they have no legal obligation to provide a forum to anybody.

Yes. I know. We all know. And Anderson is saying the loose equivalent of 'this restaurant doesn't serve conservatives'. Surely you see the problem?

In practice, he is part of a hate group in another context (I don't think his Team America Whatever is a Proud Boy function). So standalone, he is protesting what he claims is discrimination based on political beliefs. Not a necessarily a crime, but more equivalent to a verbal picketing.

 

[Meadmaker]

At the time of the last post, I hadn't yet read ST's latest contributions about the connections with the Proud Boys. So, now I at least get what's going on a little bit better, and who these people were.


A pox on all their houses, if you ask me, but I still don't condone the violence. Nothing good comes out of it. A bunch of yahoos say they are going to hold a rally, and before you know it there's this big bill for police and ambulance services, and a couple of people go to the hospital. It's just dumb. No one wins except the dentist.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

At the time of the last post, I hadn't yet read ST's latest contributions about the connections with the Proud Boys. So, now I at least get what's going on a little bit better, and who these people were.


A pox on all their houses, if you ask me, but I still don't condone the violence. Nothing good comes out of it. A bunch of yahoos say they are going to hold a rally, and before you know it there's this big bill for police and ambulance services, and a couple of people go to the hospital. It's just dumb. No one wins except the dentist.

Fascists going to jail, the hospital, or the morgue are all worthy goals that are regularly achieved by antifascist resistance on the streets.

Fascists dominate through intimidation. Showing up to these events is important.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you think the Proud Boys care about Free Speech, I got a bridge to sell you.

It doesn't matter. Either YOU care about free speech, in which case their right to free speech must be protected whether or not they care about it, or you don't.

Do you care care about free speech?

 

[Bob001]

.....
Whatever your political ideology, if tomorrow facebook auto-deleted any posts that espoused your view, as did twitter and every other social media company. If Google decided not to allow emails to be sent that espoused your view.

Actually, if they did that they would place themselves at a tremendous disadvantage against competitors who didn't do that, and maybe that would be a good thing. Observers across the political spectrum contend that Facebook, Google, Twitter etc. have way too much unelected, unregulated political power.

If a powerful consumer group organized effective boycotts to bankrupt any company that espoused your view, if all of that happened, I sort of doubt you'd just shrug your shoulders and say "That's the free market and consequences. I could start my own gmail!"

Actually, a consumer boycott is a legitimate tactic. When corporations promote political views that you don't like, you don't have to buy their products and services and you can persuade others to do the same. I'd love to see somebody bankrupt Hobby Lobby. You won't be buying Aunt Jemima syrup anymore. Corporations spend billions of dollars lobbying for favorable legislation, donating to political candidates and promoting themselves; a boycott is one of the few tools available to ordinary people.

 

[Bob001]

....
For example, I asked you to support your claim that Anderson got 'mouthy', resulting in him getting punched. You went crickets. Because you made it up.
....

I have no additional information. But since the guy was an organizer of and speaker at the event, it seems to me well within the realm of probability that the guy said stuff that pissed other people off, one more so than the others.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Why don't they take a key from republican national conventions of the past 16 years and have fenced off free speech zones?

https://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/04/hilden.freespeech/

Or is it only free speech when it is fascists?