Freedom of speech?

[Thermal]

Lot of bald declaration that this was a hate event. While it is now known that the organizer is a Proud Bitch, was that what this rally was about? People can be part of different unrelated groups. You can hold a demonstration that is not representative of your global belief systems.

Anybody know what this specific group, Team Save America (I think) is? I mean, besides sparse in support?

 

[Ziggurat]

knocking their teeth out is a good thing.
...
Fascist groups, like the Proud Boys, have taken advantage of this permissiveness to engage in brutal violent intimidation.

You're celebrating brutal violent intimidation, on the grounds that people who weren't engaged in brutal violent intimidation are the victims of that brutal violent intimidation.

That's a galaxy brain take.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Lot of bald declaration that this was a hate event. While it is now known that the organizer is a Proud Bitch, was that what this rally was about? People can be part of different unrelated groups. You can hold a demonstration that is not representative of your global belief systems.

Anybody know what this specific group, Team Save America (I think) is? I mean, besides sparse in support?

It's hard to say, because almost none of the advertised speakers showed up and the event ended early when the fascists were scattered in terror.

It seems pretty clear that it was originally intended as a cutout for a Proud Boys event, given that all the most prominent speakers were either Proud Boy leaders or close associates.

Given that they weren't able to actually do much before getting rocked by antifa, it's hard to say what they actually intended.

 

[Thermal]

If the "unpopular opinion" is that they are a Proud Boy that is there to intimidate the community, knocking their teeth out is a good thing.

I don't celebrate that this is where we are in this country. The police have abdicated their responsibility by condoning right wing violence. Fascist groups, like the Proud Boys, have taken advantage of this permissiveness to engage in brutal violent intimidation. There are no good answers here because the state has given the green light to extrajudicial violence.

In that context, it's better if the fash lose.

A similar right wing event that wasn't a Proud Boy/Patriot Prayer fash rally would not have elicited the same level of response. Nobody got their teeth knocked out because of a dispute over twitter policy.

Not entirely sure that Jack O' Anderson's faction had this in mind. He was running loose on this, not supported by the Proud Pussies. I'm thinking this may have been a more docile organization, that got slammed by association with the largely unknown Anderson.

 

[Ziggurat]

And if the only time you get all worked up about "Mah free speech!" is when hatred is involved

I defend free speech whenever it's threatened. When have I been OK with threats to free speech? You can't point to any examples. You're just desperately looking for an excuse to not defend free speech, without having to admit that you don't actually care about free speech.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Not entirely sure that Jack O' Anderson's faction had this in mind. He was running loose on this, not supported by the Proud Pussies. I'm thinking this may have been a more docile organization, that got slammed by association with the largely unknown Anderson.

He is a Proud Boy. It's unclear what the nature of the infighting among Proud Boy leadership was that lead to the no-show. I don't think the group exists more than it's just this guy's personal brand. It's probably dead now because the routine ban evader has had both the twitter and instagram accounts under this label suspended.

It strikes me that disorganization, not ideology, was the root of the drama.

Proud Boys have been in disarray since the arrest of Alan Swinney and the change of attitude among police. It seems their normal routine of showing up to town to shoot paintballs and mace at leftists is no longer viable unless they all want to follow Swinney to jail or Danielson to the grave. The few "peaceful" Proud Boy rallies have largely been boring, embarrassing affairs and the group itself seems temporarily without much direction.

I'm sure they'll find a venue friendly to their brand of political violence sooner or later, but for now they seem a little shook.

 

[Meadmaker]

Lot of bald declaration that this was a hate event. While it is now known that the organizer is a Proud Bitch, was that what this rally was about? People can be part of different unrelated groups. You can hold a demonstration that is not representative of your global belief systems.

Anybody know what this specific group, Team Save America (I think) is? I mean, besides sparse in support?

There's a web site (teamsaveamerica.com) but all it had as of yesterday was an advertisement for this rally.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I defend free speech whenever it's threatened. When have I been OK with threats to free speech? You can't point to any examples. You're just desperately looking for an excuse to not defend free speech, without having to admit that you don't actually care about free speech.

Oh okay. I guess I just magically miss it when you're defending Leftist free speech.

 

[Ziggurat]

Oh okay. I guess I just magically miss it when you're defending Leftist free speech.

I'm happy to defend leftist free speech. Show me a case where leftist free speech is under actual attack.

 

[Thermal]

And if the only time you get all worked up about "Mah free speech!" is when hatred is involved, you are defending the hatred, not the free speech.

Again one day I'll be as happy as "Free Speech Advocate" when they get to defend Nazis.

Oh come on. When else does free speech become a battleground issue? When people say Good Morning in public, uninvited? When the weatherman gives his forecast? Of course it only comes up in the fringe cases, like hate or pornography.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm happy to defend leftist free speech. Show me a case where leftist free speech is under actual attack.

Ah there it is. You never disappoint.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Oh come on. When else does free speech become a battleground issue? When people say Good Morning in public, uninvited? When the weatherman gives his forecast? Of course it only comes up in the fringe cases, like hate or pornography.

Proud Boys show up intending to cause violence, not just speak. Until recently, it was quite clear that the cops were going to let them commit violence. It remains routine for these people to drive into town with cars with no licenses plates, shoot paintballs and mace, start fistfights, and brandish firearms, often in plain view of the cops that don't intervene. Let's not be willfully obtuse about what these groups are about.

This has been the same model for fascist rallies since Unite the Right. Get a bunch of fash together and beat the snot out of local counter protestors while the police stand back and let it happen. Speech is the least of the worries at these events.

The fash have taken a few losses recently, and police are sometimes being shamed into taking action by an outraged public, but this context is largely unchanged.

I know right wing apologists will try to make this an abstract issue of free speech, but we're talking specifically about certain known neo-fascist elements, like Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer, who by all rights ought to be considered an organized criminal gang engaged in nationwide conspiracies to commit political violence.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Proud Boys show up intending to cause violence, not just speak. Until recently, it was quite clear that the cops were going to let them commit violence. It remains routine for these people to drive into town with cars with no licenses plates, shoot paintballs and mace, start fistfights, and brandish firearms, often in plain view of the cops that don't intervene. Let's not be willfully obtuse about what these groups are about.

Or as the right wing calls it engage in constitutionally protected free speech.

 

[Thermal]

Proud Boys show up intending to cause violence, not just speak. Until recently, it was quite clear that the cops were going to let them commit violence. It remains routine for these people to drive into town with cars with no licenses plates, shoot paintballs and mace, start fistfights, and brandish firearms, often in plain view of the cops that don't intervene. Let's not be willfully obtuse about what these groups are about.

This has been the same model for fascist rallies since Unite the Right. Get a bunch of fash together and beat the snot out of local counter protestors while the police stand back and let it happen. Speech is the least of the worries at these events.

The fash have taken a few losses recently, and police are sometimes being shamed into taking action by an outraged public, but this context is largely unchanged.

And before UTR, police were criticized for letting antifa run rampant in west coast demonstrations. Police generally let the kids play, I think. What we see more of is Fascists starting the rallys, and antifa showing up to counter. The organizers get more public attention, because antifa is faceless to the public.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Veto power

But what’s the freedom of speech issue?

The organizers had a permit to be there (ABC). The stated purpose of the demonstration was freedom of speech. We cannot know what the speaker(s) planned to say, because they were subjected to a violent version of the heckler's veto.

Ken White, formerly of PopeHat, is always worth reading when it comes to free speech issues. "Certainly government can strive to protect citizens from harm, and can try to preserve its own functions. But stopping expression to indulge angry people should be the last resort, not the first. Americans need too little incentive to act badly in the face of speech they don't like."

See also this link. I realize that the situation is different here, but any excuse to read Ken White on freedom of speech is a good excuse.
EDT
Wikipedia does a decent job of explaining the difference between the narrow legal use of the term hacker's veto (which is Ken White's main concern) and the broader, colloquial sense of the term. The quote that came from Nat Hentoff is a good summary of the latter: "First Amendment law is clear that everyone has the right to picket a speaker, and to go inside the hall and heckle him or her—but not to drown out the speaker, let alone rush the stage and stop the speech before it starts. That's called the 'heckler's veto.'"

 

[Ziggurat]

Ah there it is. You never disappoint.

And you always do. You accused me of something you can't actually back up, and when challenged, you don't even try.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And before UTR, police were criticized for letting antifa run rampant in west coast demonstrations. Police generally let the kids play, I think. What we see more of is Fascists starting the rallys, and antifa showing up to counter. The organizers get more public attention, because antifa is faceless to the public.

It probably helps that antifa types don't chant "Jews will not replace us" and commit terrorist attacks at their demonstrations. When it comes to garnering negative public attention, the reactionaries have only themselves to blame. They can't seem to resist the ole siren song of brutalizing unarmed people at protests or committing hate crimes.

Police only take a hands off approach when their right wing allies are in the mix. The moment that the fascists leave the scene, suddenly crimes are arrestable again. We've seen this over and over again.

 

[Ziggurat]

Proud Boys show up intending to cause violence, not just speak.

You say that, but the violence in this case was inflicted on them, not by them.

It remains routine for these people to drive into town with cars with no licenses plates, shoot paintballs and mace, start fistfights, and brandish firearms, often in plain view of the cops that don't intervene.

But none of that happened here, did it?

Let's not be willfully obtuse about what these groups are about.

... he said, being willfully obtuse about what happened.

I know right wing apologists will try to make this an abstract issue of free speech

It's not abstract at all. It's quite concrete. It's not acceptable to meet protected speech with violence, no matter how much you don't like the speaker.

 

[Ziggurat]

They can't seem to resist the ole siren song of brutalizing unarmed people at protests or committing hate crimes.

This is a very strange defense of brutalizing unarmed people at protests and committing hate crimes.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You say that, but the violence in this case was inflicted on them, not by them.

Yeah, that's why it's funny this time. Not quite as funny as when some CHUD with mace gets plugged by his intended victim, but definitely worth a chuckle.

But none of that happened here, did it?



... he said, being willfully obtuse about what happened.



It's not abstract at all. It's quite concrete. It's not acceptable to meet protected speech with violence, no matter how much you don't like the speaker.

Thoughts and prayers for a fash that had a half baked rally and got his ass kicked. Hope his new dental implants work out for him.