Freedom of speech?

[Thermal]

We don't know what happened. If he was actually attacked by 500 counter-demonstrators he wouldn't have survived. If somebody pitched a bottle at the podium, you could call it "wrong place, wrong time."

True. The question I was asked was how much should we get our panties in a twist over a Republican demonstrator getting punched in the mouth. Without any additional information about the altercation, I'd say pretty bunched. New evidence might change that.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Question:
did the violent counter-protester hit to prevent someone from talking, or hit because of what what said.

Only one of those scenarios would be the domain of Freedom Of Speech.

It was a fascist demonstration in the middle of San Francisco. I would assume they came looking for a fight and found one.

This story about those horrible mean ol' counterprotesters being mean to them should therefore be given the same consideration as one of our trolls making a thread in the FMF forum to whine about being unfairly yellow carded.

 

[johnny karate]

Fine. The hyper-anal answer to your question would then be: We should get our collective panties in a fairly large and twisted bunch over the random dental restructuring of any Republican who is peacefully demonstrating if the justification is that you don't like what other Republicans have said at other times and places. This particular one does not necessarily carry that particular onus of responsibility. Not that random violent attacks are ever an appropriate response to vague posturing by others on freaking Twitter.

Better?

Okay, so if we need to get that worked up over someone getting hit in the face, what’s the appropriate response to vehicular homicide, or plots to kidnap governors, or large-scale incompetence and negligence that leads to tens of thousands of needless deaths?

To be clear, people getting hit in the face for any reason isn’t generally something that concerns me all that much. It’s just a matter of scale with so many more significant evils in the world. But lacking the moral clarity that you so clearly possess, I’m curious to know how you balance all these issues.

 

[Thermal]

You can bothsides me when someone plows a damn car into them. "We get to be murderously violent dickwads but you don't" isn't what I'd call "discourse."

No one says they unilaterally get to be anything. Murderers are murderers and get the Rule of Law with both barrels.

You want a justified target on your back because of the actions of worst actors on your team? One radical hard-leftist with a gun and your teeth are fair game? That's pretty stupid.

 

[Thermal]

Okay, so if we need to get that worked up over someone getting hit in the face, what’s the appropriate response to vehicular homicide, or plots to kidnap governors, or large-scale incompetence and negligence that leads to tens of thousands of needless deaths?

To be clear, people getting hit in the face for any reason isn’t generally something that concerns me all that much. It’s just a matter of scale with so many more significant evils in the world. But lacking the moral clarity that you so clearly possess, I’m curious to know how you balance all these issues.

Teeth knocked out. Not the downplayed 'hit in the face'.

I say the good guys stay on the high ground. You say an eye for an eye. Actually, just anyone's eye for an eye. You go, Hammurabi.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Murderers are murderers and get the Rule of Law with both barrels.

The police broke up this fight and didn't arrest anyone or make any charges. By your logic the Rule of Law has said that nothing effectively happened here, so I don't see how your point follows.

 

[Thermal]

The police broke up this fight and didn't arrest anyone or make any charges. By your logic the Rule of Law has said that nothing effectively happened here, so I don't see how your point follows.

Hm. I thought that would mean the cops didn't catch any suspects. But you say it means nothing happened here. Hm.

I suppose the cop who was hospitalized sprayed himself with caustic chemicals? Or the police just thought it was all in good fun?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Hm. I thought that would mean the cops didn't catch any suspects. But you say it means nothing happened here. Hm.

I suppose the cop who was hospitalized sprayed himself with caustic chemicals? Or the police just thought it was all in good fun?

No, we know who pepper-sprayed the cops, it was the Trumpers. Otherwise do you think the interviewed organizer of the group would have refrained from accusing the counter-protestors of that too? Which suggests they were pepper-spraying the counter-protestors as well, meaning that he did not get struck in the face "for no reason."

Like I said, came for a fight, found one.

 

[smartcooky]

Yeah, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom only to say what's popular or widely accepted.

Freedom of Speech means the government can't suppress what you say. Private individuals have no such restrictions.

If you come to my house, and start talking about your support for Trump, and you won't shut up about it when I tell you to, I can (and will) kick you out. I'm not suppressing your right to free speech, I'm kicking you out because you're being a dickhead.... My house, my rules.

 

[Thermal]

No, we know who pepper-sprayed the cops, it was the Trumpers. Otherwise do you think the interviewed organizer of the group would have refrained from accusing the counter-protestors of that too? Which suggests they were pepper-spraying the counter-protestors as well, meaning that he did not get struck in the face "for no reason."

Like I said, came for a fight, found one.

That's...thats an interesting interpretation. So, reading this AP article, you assume the Thin Blue Line supporters were...pepper spraying the cops, hospitalizing one...then you clairvoyantly read that the Trumpeters pepper sprayed the counterprotestors, causing them to fight back...all of this being fine and dandy with the police, who are so well known for tolerating the hospitalization of one of their own.

Ok, I'll be signing off now.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

That's...thats an interesting interpretation. So, reading this AP article, you assume the Thin Blue Line supporters were...pepper spraying the cops, hospitalizing one...then you clairvoyantly read that the Trumpeters pepper sprayed the counterprotestors, causing them to fight back...all of this being fine and dandy with the police, who are so well known for tolerating the hospitalization of one of their own.

Ok, I'll be signing off now.

It would help if you'd actually read my posts instead of skimming them for things to scoff at. They wanted a fight. They came for a fight. They got a fight. Cops broke up the fight. Zero **** were given all around, except for people desperate to try and twist it into something where blame can be laid on both sides.

[ETA] Aaand I just noticed he's making one of those boogaloo hand signs as they load him into the ambulance. I'm sticking with "he had it coming."

 

[theprestige]

Progressives resorting to political violence when confronted with political speech.

 

[Thermal]

It would help if you'd actually read my posts instead of skimming them for things to scoff at. They wanted a fight. They came for a fight. They got a fight. Cops broke up the fight. Zero **** were given all around, except for people desperate to try and twist it into something where blame can be laid on both sides.

No, the AP article is titled ' Conservatives Staging Free Speech Rally Attacked by Critics.' It does not say 'We know who pepper sprayed the cops. It was the Trumpers' (your words).

I can't tell from this article who started what. But I have been cheering antifa for years, when they throw down mutually. I can't see that this one was mutual.

You are just making **** up. Im not willing to argue with hallucinations.

Eta:your eta: or maybe...just maybe...an 'I'm ok' sign?

Btw, the ok sign is white power, not Boogs. And still 99% of the time, it means ******* ok

 

[Thermal]

Progressives resorting to political violence when confronted with political speech.

I don't think these guys were necessarily progressives any more than a mugger must be a fiscal conservative reclaiming his stolen tax dollars.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

No, the AP article is titled ' Conservatives Staging Free Speech Rally Attacked by Critics.' It does not say 'We know who pepper sprayed the cops. It was the Trumpers' (your words).

I can't tell from this article who started what. But I have been cheering antifa for years, when they throw down mutually. I can't see that this one was mutual.

You are just making **** up. Im not willing to argue with hallucinations.

It also doesn't say it was a counter-protestor who hit him. Or even that he had that tooth the day before. The only thing it does say is his mouth was injured (for which he was loaded on a stretcher into an ambulance?), and that he claims it was a peaceful protest which was attacked "for no reason," which I find about as likely as the first two insinuations.

 

[Thermal]

It also doesn't say it was a counter-protestor who hit him. Or even that he had that tooth the day before. The only thing it does say is his mouth was injured (for which he was loaded on a stretcher into an ambulance?), and that he claims it was a peaceful protest which was attacked "for no reason," which I find about as likely as the first two insinuations.

FFS dude his mouth was covered in blood with one of the teeth still dangling. No, I don't think he was wandering around for days like that. This is not some bias-assed Faux news op-ed. It's the Associated Press.

And yes, speaking as a former Recsue squad volunteer, you assume possible head injury and treat accordingly when you see a busted up face like that. I mean, come on.

 

[sackett]

I don't think these guys were necessarily progressives any more than a mugger must be a fiscal conservative reclaiming his stolen tax dollars.

An aside: To born Republicans, "progressive" is a pejorative, quite a scandalous term, and they apply it in the belief that it destroys with its very touch. Once they've uttered it, they can lean back and enjoy the devastation they imagine they've wrought, and play deaf to any sort of counter-argument.

Ask them to define "progressive" if you like, but please, in a separate thread.

 

[Thermal]

An aside: To born Republicans, "progressive" is a pejorative, quite a scandalous term, and they apply it in the belief that it destroys with its very touch. Once they've uttered it, they can lean back and enjoy the devastation they imagine they've wrought, and play deaf to any sort of counter-argument.

Ask them to define "progressive" if you like, but please, in a separate thread.

I get that, and while I don't hang much in political threads, I consider theprestige to be one of a very few posters who will reconsider his position as a result of clean argumentation. Not always, but often enough where I do not consider him closed minded at all.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

FFS dude his mouth was covered in blood with one of the teeth still dangling. No, I don't think he was wandering around for days like that. This is not some bias-assed Faux news op-ed. It's the Associated Press.

And yes, speaking as a former Recsue squad volunteer, you assume possible head injury and treat accordingly when you see a busted up face like that. I mean, come on.

See? Now that we've got "but the article doesn't say that!" out of the way, which do you find more likely: that this boogaloo boy really was staging a completely peaceful protest for conservative ideology in downtown San Francisco and really was assaulted and attacked by hundreds of anti-fascist counter-protestors yet only suffered a punch in face purely for his views and exercise of free speech, or that he deliberately came to pick a fight?

 

[Thermal]

See? Now that we've got "but the article doesn't say that!" out of the way,

Actually, no. You will continue to be held to factual accuracy. Random rewriting of the narrative does not constitute factual accuracy.

...which do you find more likely: that this boogaloo boy...

Nowhere does the article state he was a boog. He does not look like a boog, nor speak like one. In fact, pretty confident you have no idea whatsoever what a Boogaloo Boi is.

...really was staging a completely peaceful protest for conservative ideology in downtown San Francisco...

Yes, people stage protests of all sorts all over the place

... and really was assaulted and attacked by hundreds of anti-fascist counter-protestors...

The article says the critics attacked the conservatives, not that hundreds attacked just him. You don't understand a word of this article, do you?

...yet only suffered a punch in face purely for his views and exercise of free speech...

I.e.: Got teeth knocked out in an attack

...or that he deliberately came to pick a fight?

False dichotomy. Look at hommes. He look like a scrapper to you? Looks like a couch potato to me. I think it's perfectly plausible that he was politically flexing, with no intention of brawling. If the conservatives were armed, different story. Oh, and your pulled-out-of-thin-air claim that the Trumpanzees were the chemical s prayers here still amounts to precisely squat. You'll need to demonstrate why Thin Blue Line supporters would be hospitalizing cops, then the cops clapping them on the back.