Freedom of speech?

[TurkeysGhost]

To counter your selective reading and your speculation and insinuation, I will present once again:

What do you think should be done about fascist street gangs that operate without implicit permission from local police?

That's the situation that is often occurring. The cops are totally compromised. They are sympathetic, if not outright infiltrated, by right wing extremists. They will not stop a Proud Boy from knocking your teeth in for having the temerity to wave a Biden sign at a protest. What are you going to do if some militia CHUD questions your right to cast a ballot on voting day?

What would you recommend? The state monopoly on violence is crumbling before your eyes, what should be done?

Assume "do nothing" is not an option (this may be difficult)

 

[Emily's Cat]

If anything normalizes violence, it’s the attitude that the violent acts routinely committed by the right don’t merit attention or consideration.

Stop making such poor assumptions. The above is simply incorrect. At no point have I suggested that they don't merit attention or consideration. Your inferences are wrong.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's more than "worse". The two sides are not comparable. The magnitude of difference is staggering, and even suggesting "both sides" smacks of intellectual dishonesty. And yet, some here will bend over backwards to imply that the two sides are similar.

Oh good lord. Let's try this.

-2 and -1002 are both negative. I reject Negatives, in favor of Positives. The observation that -2 is a lot less negative than -1002 still doesn't make it positive.

 

[Emily's Cat]

deleted

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Deleted

Double deleted.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Oh good lord. Let's try this.

-2 and -1002 are both negative. I reject Negatives, in favor of Positives. The observation that -2 is a lot less negative than -1002 still doesn't make it positive.

I might consider 75 degrees a bit warm for my apartment, but I don't think I'd mention it in reference to a forest fire burning down an entire town. Dosage makes the poison.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I haven't seen Meadmake dismiss violence from the right. I think he downplays the threat more than I do, perhaps. I think that there's a very real probability that small groups like the Proud Boys and worse elements will cause significant violence in November.

I don't think sucker punching a Proud Boy who was not posing in imminent threat does a damned thing to lessen that probability.

I'm inclined to think that there will be widespread violence come november, no matter who wins. If Trump loses, we'll get violence from right wing extremists who view it as a travesty. If Trump wins, we'll get "antifa" and other leftist disorganizations taking to the streets and committing violence for the same reason.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm inclined to think that there will be widespread violence come november, no matter who wins. If Trump loses, we'll get violence from right wing extremists who view it as a travesty. If Trump wins, we'll get "antifa" and other leftist disorganizations taking to the streets and committing violence for the same reason.

The right wing is going to commit violence regardless of the election. If anything, a Trump victory will only further embolden them.

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't think anyone is concerned about this person getting their teeth knocked out. I doubt anyone here give a crap about that person at all.

On the other hand, I personally care a whole lot about the normalization of violence against people one disagrees with, and I personally care a whole lot about the unabashed lauding of the aggressor who knocked this guy's teeth out, and I personally care a lot about the bloodthirsty zealots who celebrate people getting their teeth knocked out because they feel morally superior and believe that violence against beliefs is justified on that basis.

I don't think I'm alone in holding that view.

Well said.



I will add, though, a slightly different spin. When I hear that someone got their teeth knocked out on the street, I don't ask "Who was he?" before deciding whether or not to get upset about people knocking out other people's teeth.

On the other hand, I do frequently ask, "What was he doing?" If the answer was, "Threatening to knock someone's teeth out." then I'm not going to shed any tears for him. If it was, "Saying the wrong things." I'm not likely to be very supportive of the attacker, regardless of how bad the things were. Even if he was saying very bad things indeed I'm likely to say that teeth-knocking is a bad idea.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

SJW wokescolds take another scalp in their war on free speech:

The Marine Corps is investigating a deployed machine-gunner who seems to be a Nazi fanboy

The Marine Corps is investigating a deployed machine-gunner with possible neo-Nazi sympathies who told a Jewish journalist earlier this week on Instagram that her religion is “that of satan.”

Talia Lavin, who published a book last week on how white supremacists organize online, said that Marine Lance Cpl. Joseph Mercurio “randomly commented” on her Instagram profile with the antisemitic remark. Then she clicked over to his account and found in his bio below “USMC 0331” a quote from a prominent white nationalist leader and lyrics from a Neo-Nazi punk rock band.

Outrageous that an aspiring Marine machine gunner can't DM a Jewish author and make a transaction on the marketplace of ideas.

The number of hate groups in the United States has increased dramatically since 2000, while a 2008 FBI report warned that various far-right extremist leaders were “making a concerted effort to recruit active-duty soldiers and recent combat veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,” adding that “those with military experience often hold positions of authority within the groups to which they belong.”

This is fine actually.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-corps-nazi-machine-gunner

ETA: This moron was actually using his real name, rank, and military occupation on social media while openly advocating pro-nazi positions. Went from DM'ing an author who just published a book about exposing white supremacists to getting investigated by the USMC for a free Big Chicken Dinner in like 2 seconds. They aren't sending their best

 

[ponderingturtle]

SJW wokescolds take another scalp in their war on free speech:



Outrageous that an aspiring Marine machine gunner can't DM a Jewish author and make a transaction on the marketplace of ideas.



This is fine actually.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-corps-nazi-machine-gunner

ETA: This moron was actually using his real name, rank, and military occupation on social media while openly advocating pro-nazi positions. Went from DM'ing the author to getting investigated by the USMC for a free Big Chicken Dinner in like 2 seconds. They aren't sending their best

I am sure we will hear how this is an infringement on his religious freedoms any time now.

 

[johnny karate]

Stop making such poor assumptions. The above is simply incorrect. At no point have I suggested that they don't merit attention or consideration. Your inferences are wrong.

You’re on record saying you literally ignore violent rhetoric from the right.

 

[johnny karate]

I haven't seen Meadmake dismiss violence from the right. I think he downplays the threat more than I do, perhaps. I think that there's a very real probability that small groups like the Proud Boys and worse elements will cause significant violence in November.

So what are we to make of someone who downplays violence from one side while playing up violence from the other?

I don't think sucker punching a Proud Boy who was not posing in imminent threat does a damned thing to lessen that probability.

Punching a Proud Boy probably isn’t a threat to free speech either. The OP would have us believe otherwise.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You’re on record saying you literally ignore violent rhetoric from the right.

Lol... that is an interesting re-framing of "I have a few racist jerks on ignore so I don't see it when they post violent rhetoric".

But hey, you do you. Integrity is optional.

 

[Meadmaker]

So what are we to make of someone who downplays violence from one side while playing up violence from the other?

That he stays on the thread topic?

 

[phiwum]

So what are we to make of someone who downplays violence from one side while playing up violence from the other?

I make out that he has a different opinion on the seriousness of the threat.

I don't see any reason to insinuate something more dastardly than that.

Punching a Proud Boy probably isn’t a threat to free speech either. The OP would have us believe otherwise.

I tend to agree that this act is unlikely to have any noticeable affect on free speech rights.

If the opinions some have shared here (that violence against Proud Boys is perfectly fine because they're fascists) were to become more commonplace, then things would get worse than they are. So long as antifa is loosely knit with few acts of serious violence and none of large scale violence that I know of, they won't do too much harm to freedom of speech generally.

 

[Meadmaker]

Let me put it like this. Here in Michigan, we just had a highly publicized case of severe right wing violence. Some numbskulls were plotting to kidnap our governor.

Two of the accused were some of the same morons parading through the Michigan capital building in march. Back when they were doing the parading, I was right there talking about the morons with their guns, and the stupid laws that allowed them to have those guns, and the stupid things they were saying about them. Now that they've been arrested for real violence, or planning of the same, I would be denouncing them to high heaven. Except, there's no thread about it. Everyone agrees. We all think the people who plotted to kidnap and execute Governor Whitmer are pond scum and should be locked up.

So, there. I'm condemning right wing violence. Except, I had to go off topic to do it. There's not much point in having a thread about it, because everyone would agree.

This thread, though, is about violence committed by left wingers, so that's what I'm talking about. I'm not that much interested in whataboutism. People shouldn't knock out other people's teeth. I just don't see why we have to discuss Dylan Roof in order to agree that people ought not knock out other people's teeth.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What more can be said about the actual OP topic?

Toothless got as much 1A protection from the government as one can reasonably expect in this country. The cops set up a protective barricade and prevented the angry mobs from rushing the stage. After they pissed their pants, they gave them a VIP ride to their parking garage so they could escape the city. Hell, they even investigated the punching and actually made an arrest promptly, something that PPB never seems to manage when the shoe (or brass knuckle) is on the other foot.

Free speech was never really the issue here because the gov't was quite accommodating, as required by 1A, to this group.

Naturally the conversation turned to political violence.

 

[Thermal]

SJW wokescolds take another scalp in their war on free speech:



Outrageous that an aspiring Marine machine gunner can't DM a Jewish author and make a transaction on the marketplace of ideas.



This is fine actually.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-corps-nazi-machine-gunner

ETA: This moron was actually using his real name, rank, and military occupation on social media while openly advocating pro-nazi positions. Went from DM'ing an author who just published a book about exposing white supremacists to getting investigated by the USMC for a free Big Chicken Dinner in like 2 seconds. They aren't sending their best

Damn shame tho. Another missed opportunity to kill him before the authorities subjected him to rule of law.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Damn shame tho. Another missed opportunity to kill him before the authorities subjected him to rule of law.

Nah, he'll be out among us in no time.

Joking barb aside, this person is probably very dangerous, having just pissed their nascent career away with open nazism. Probably fall into one of the many neo-fascist groups available in this country, maybe he'll shoot up a synagogue in the next few years.

Perhaps you can understand why someone might want to arm themselves against someone who openly advocated murdering Chinese people while quoting neo-nazi literature.