Freedom of speech?

[ponderingturtle]

First, I don't know any threads Meadmaker has started about violence at all. He certainly did not start this thread.

I personally would be more likely to start a thread about leftwing violence than right because I think that a number of folks around here support things like coldcocking a Proud Boy and I think that there is some chance of discussion. I don't know anyone who supported, say, what the right did at Charlottesville and it would be utterly useless to try to talk to such a person. I wouldn't try to talk sense to a leftwinger who advocated deadly attacks against the right either. That kind of violence is just so beyond the pale that I expect we all agree it is heinous.

Milder forms of violence, like punching out someone you regard as fascist, are the sorts of topics that may be open for debate.

Obviously, I can't speak for Meadmaker, so I've substituted my own approach. The fact that I criticize leftwing violence doesn't mean I accept more heinous acts from the rightwing. Rather, I see no point in adding "Gosh, I don't think you should run over innocent people in a car!" to an ongoing discussion.

Truth be told, I never said Kim Jong Un shouldn't execute people with an anti-aircraft gun either. Just so you don't mistake my silence for consent, I'll say it now. It's bad to execute people with an anti-aircraft gun.

Oh, and Hitler. He was bad too.

And when the police work hand in glove with these white supremacist groups one just has to take it. Like how at Charlottesville the police only cared about the guy taking pot shots after the video became public and not when it was happening in front of them.

 

[phiwum]

Today in adventures of the dangers of both sides



White supremacists were making moves to dox and/or murder federal agents that were responsible for the criminal investigations into other white supremacists that were investigated and charged for their violent actions at Unite the Right.

But yeah, someone at UTR on the "other side" probably threw a punch or two, so things are about equal .

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-supremacist-chad-bagwell-allegedly-had-list-of-feds-to-kill-and-doxx-unsealed-file

Who has said things are equal? This is a strawman near as I can figger.

The fact that the other side behaves worse does not make our side's bad behavior acceptable.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

My point remains this. The Proud Boys is an explicitly violent group. They have repeatedly shown that, if they happen to have superior numbers and firepower, they will inflict open aggression against their perceived enemies. They are literally a travelling road show of political violence, often with known violent actors criss-crossing the country looking for opportunities to hurt people.

The fact that, in this scenario, they happened to be so outnumbered that they got a thorough ass beating is not something to bemoan. We should be so lucky that every proud boy is such a terrible event organizer as toothless.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I reckon I've explicitly said that the rightwing violence has been largely worse than the leftwing violence, with the only case of parity I can think of is one shooting by someone on the left side of the aisle.

I believe Meadmaker has said the same.

So, who precisely is failing to recognize the difference in degree here? I haven't noticed anyone.

And when people get beaten by cops like Kitties daughter and sent to the hospital they just have to suck it up, but god forbid a white supremacist ever have to suck up their injuries.


Defending yourself is just antagonizing them and makes it all your own fault. Just lay there and take the beating.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't think anyone is concerned about this person getting their teeth knocked out. I doubt anyone here give a crap about that person at all.

The OP is suggesting that free speech has been imperiled. Not only do people give a crap, they give all the craps it takes to wonder if one of the basic tenets of democracy is under threat.

On the other hand, I personally care a whole lot about the normalization of violence against people one disagrees with, and I personally care a whole lot about the unabashed lauding of the aggressor who knocked this guy's teeth out, and I personally care a lot about the bloodthirsty zealots who celebrate people getting their teeth knocked out because they feel morally superior and believe that violence against beliefs is justified on that basis.

I don't think I'm alone in holding that view.

You’re also not alone in holding the view that the behavior of one side is to be disregarded or ignored.

If anything normalizes violence, it’s the attitude that the violent acts routinely committed by the right don’t merit attention or consideration.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Who has said things are equal? This is a strawman near as I can figger.

The fact that the other side behaves worse does not make our side's bad behavior acceptable.

It's more than "worse". The two sides are not comparable. The magnitude of difference is staggering, and even suggesting "both sides" smacks of intellectual dishonesty. And yet, some here will bend over backwards to imply that the two sides are similar.

 

[phiwum]

In my humble opinion, those local laws that allow people, including you, to wander around with loaded guns are dumb as hell. You are in full compliance with a set of laws that are just plain nuts.

Suburban Turkey is in MA according to his profile. I don't know the concealed carry laws here, but I suspect that they're not particularly lax.

I considered asking for my father's revolver when he passed, but looked at the local laws and it seemed more trouble than it was worth for a mostly sentimental inheritance.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Many people went to that protest fully armed, and only one committed multiple murder.

Perhaps you can parse the difference. Intentions matter.

ACTIONS matter. CONSEQUENCES matter. Intentions only matter to one's own rationalizations.

 

[smartcooky]

I'd like to reiterate the post that you "missed".



Suburban Turkey, as far as I can tell, you actively and consciously choose an evil approach as a means of retaliation, in preference to a good approach.

Oh my! Please educate us about this "good approach" to dealing with violent, right wing fascists and extremists...

I'm all ears!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Suburban Turkey is in MA according to his profile. I don't know the concealed carry laws here, but I suspect that they're not particularly lax.

I considered asking for my father's revolver when he passed, but looked at the local laws and it seemed more trouble than it was worth for a mostly sentimental inheritance.

You must have a license to possess a firearm of any kind in MA, and likewise to carry. Well, not black powder firearms.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 1

 

[ponderingturtle]

Clearly a nazi loosing a couple of teeth is way way more of a threat to free speech than a few reporters getting their eyes put out by the police, that is just funny.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

ACTIONS matter. CONSEQUENCES matter. Intentions only matter to one's own rationalizations.

I assure you, intention, aka motive, matters a lot when it comes to self defense shootings, and criminal matters generally. You may notice that there are several shades of criminal homicide, in which intention is an important differentiating factor.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You’re trying to create daylight between “didn’t pay attention to” and “ignore”. There isn’t any.

The bottom line is, you turn a blind eye to what one side is doing and then make a declaration that the bad behavior is only coming from the other side.

Do you understand that people seeing you do that might think that you’re being disingenuous?

I'm not turning a blind eye - I am actively and consciously rejecting the views of some posters. I have deemed some viewpoints so abhorrent that I will not read them. They are unworthy of my attention.

 

[johnny karate]

First, I don't know any threads Meadmaker has started about violence at all. He certainly did not start this thread.

I personally would be more likely to start a thread about leftwing violence than right because I think that a number of folks around here support things like coldcocking a Proud Boy and I think that there is some chance of discussion. I don't know anyone who supported, say, what the right did at Charlottesville and it would be utterly useless to try to talk to such a person. I wouldn't try to talk sense to a leftwinger who advocated deadly attacks against the right either. That kind of violence is just so beyond the pale that I expect we all agree it is heinous.

Milder forms of violence, like punching out someone you regard as fascist, are the sorts of topics that may be open for debate.

Obviously, I can't speak for Meadmaker, so I've substituted my own approach. The fact that I criticize leftwing violence doesn't mean I accept more heinous acts from the rightwing. Rather, I see no point in adding "Gosh, I don't think you should run over innocent people in a car!" to an ongoing discussion.

Truth be told, I never said Kim Jong Un shouldn't execute people with an anti-aircraft gun either. Just so you don't mistake my silence for consent, I'll say it now. It's bad to execute people with an anti-aircraft gun.

Oh, and Hitler. He was bad too.

This isn’t about some purity test to prove that you oppose violence from both sides.

This is about people actively dismissing or ignoring violence from the right and then criticizing the left for much less significant violence.

 

[phiwum]

You must have a license to possess a firearm of any kind in MA. Well, not black powder firearms.

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed rule breach

Right, that must've been what stopped me taking the revolver. I like the gun, but I am not an avid shooter and didn't want to go through the hoops to legally bring it into Massachusetts.

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed response to rule breach

 

[Emily's Cat]

First, I don't know any threads Meadmaker has started about violence at all. He certainly did not start this thread.

I personally would be more likely to start a thread about leftwing violence than right because I think that a number of folks around here support things like coldcocking a Proud Boy and I think that there is some chance of discussion. I don't know anyone who supported, say, what the right did at Charlottesville and it would be utterly useless to try to talk to such a person. I wouldn't try to talk sense to a leftwinger who advocated deadly attacks against the right either. That kind of violence is just so beyond the pale that I expect we all agree it is heinous.

Milder forms of violence, like punching out someone you regard as fascist, are the sorts of topics that may be open for debate.

Obviously, I can't speak for Meadmaker, so I've substituted my own approach. The fact that I criticize leftwing violence doesn't mean I accept more heinous acts from the rightwing. Rather, I see no point in adding "Gosh, I don't think you should run over innocent people in a car!" to an ongoing discussion.

Truth be told, I never said Kim Jong Un shouldn't execute people with an anti-aircraft gun either. Just so you don't mistake my silence for consent, I'll say it now. It's bad to execute people with an anti-aircraft gun.

Oh, and Hitler. He was bad too.

Pretty much this. At this point, i still hold out some hope that the handful of posters who advocate for and laud violence against others can be reasoned with, and are capable of changing their views. The few posters who, in my perspective, would support the actions taken at Charlottesville are not capable of changing their views, and thus I don't interact with them.

Silence on a topic for which we* are in unanimous agreement doesn't not in any way indicate consent. It just means that we already agree and there's not much more to be said about it.

*We in this case excluding the very few who may reasonably be expected to not agree and who are people that I intentionally do not interact with.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You might think the threats of the left and right are similar, but the data has been in for years. People like me who are "advocating for violence" to your ear are objectively less dangerous.

How does the incontrovertible fact that the right wing is overwhelmingly responsible for political violence this country square with your perceptions? Have you considered that your perception may be faulty?

maybe it is telling that this thread about left wing violence is about a man losing a couple teeth from a punch, where threads about right wing violence often involve gunmen firing into crowds of unarmed people. Perhaps that should indicate something to you.

The Left, no matter how you define it, is objectively less violent. It's not even close. Your inability to accept this is extremely suspicious. Frankly, I don't believe it's sincere.

To counter your selective reading and your speculation and insinuation, I will present once again:

On more than one occasion, you've presented views that seem to imply that I should choose the "lesser" evil, and support it. I refuse to do so. You see this as a choice between a great evil and a minor evil, and look no further. I see a choice between evil and good, and hence I will choose good. I reject your false dichotomy as nothing more than a thinly-veiled appeal to might makes right.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm not turning a blind eye - I am actively and consciously rejecting the views of some posters. I have deemed some viewpoints so abhorrent that I will not read them. They are unworthy of my attention.

When you follow up this willful ignorance with a provably untrue proclamation that violent rhetoric only comes from the left, it belies your attempt to appear neutral.

 

[phiwum]

This isn’t about some purity test to prove that you oppose violence from both sides.

This is about people actively dismissing or ignoring violence from the right and then criticizing the left for much less significant violence.

I haven't seen Meadmake dismiss violence from the right. I think he downplays the threat more than I do, perhaps. I think that there's a very real probability that small groups like the Proud Boys and worse elements will cause significant violence in November.

I don't think sucker punching a Proud Boy who was not posing in imminent threat does a damned thing to lessen that probability.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This comment was largely directed at Emily's Cat.

There's no failure to recognize a difference in magnitude between TWO EVILS. That said, I still reject the evil that you are so excited to embrace.