FLDS/Texas CPS - whose is the greater crime?

[Kestrel]

According to CNN


I am still not up to date on finding great stories on what is happening. This CNN article says something that is very strange. Note the ratio of boys to girls. Shouldn't that number be closer to 50%? That is 24% boys and 76% girls. Huh? No abuse going on huh.

I know they kick out part of the boys once they reach 18, but these are 14-17 years old. Did they get mistaken for over 18 at the ranch and they were never taken into custody? Were they killed as babies? What? Maybe CNN has the numbers wrong, but I like the way CNN writes the article, "but there are only..." The reporter knows something is up here also.

Susan

The FLDS kicks the boys out, mostly for trivial reasons, long before they turn 18. They end up homeless in nearby towns where the state social services take care of them at taxpayer expense. It's just another way the FLDS abuses children.

 

[The Atheist]

The FLDS kicks the boys out, mostly for trivial reasons, long before they turn 18.

Trivial?

How is removing competition trivial?

Seems as though the FLDS is a bit like a group of gorillas or lions.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Trivial?

When the FLDS gives a reason, they can't say they want all the girls for themselves. The reasons they give are all trivial.

Seems as though the FLDS is a bit like a group of gorillas or lions.

I'm all for putting them down like you would a rabid animal.

Susan

 

[The Atheist]

'm all for putting them down like you would a rabid animal.

Susan

If the allegations turn out to be true, I'd agree with you.

 

[Kestrel]

When the FLDS gives a reason, they can't say they want all the girls for themselves. The reasons they give are all trivial.

For example, see this article.

Gideon is one of the ''Lost Boys," a group of more than 400 teenagers -- some as young as 13 -- who authorities in Utah and Arizona say have fled or been driven out of the polygamous enclaves of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City over the last four years.

His stated offenses: wearing short-sleeved shirts, listening to compact discs, and having a girlfriend. Other boys say they were booted out for going to movies, watching television, and staying out past curfew.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

No, it was named after Queen Henrietta Maria, the wife of Charles I.

That's what I get for going with conventional wisdom and not double checking.

 

[Beth]

According to CNN


I am still not up to date on finding great stories on what is happening. This CNN article says something that is very strange. Note the ratio of boys to girls. Shouldn't that number be closer to 50%? That is 24% boys and 76% girls.

According to my local paper, the sect is claiming that some of the girls identified as underage are actually adults. Don't know if it's true, but if so that may account for some of the discrepancy.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

The hairstyles are actually from the 1800s and are never cut because the women are supposed to use it to wash Jesus' feet when he returns/they meet him. I learned something interesting about the dresses. The women were allowed to wear more modern, though still modest clothes until the 1950s when the dictate came down they haid to start wearing the Prairie dresses.

I just finished reading a book by a woman who escape from the FLDS. Until Warren Jeffs took over (in 2002), they wore normal, but modest clothes. Once Jeffs took over, boys were kicked out, the color red was banned, women were not allowed to wear clothes that had prints, only plain pastel dresses.

Escape by Carolyn Jessop. It is a fascinating look into the culture of FLDS.

 

[drkitten]

According to my local paper, the sect is claiming that some of the girls identified as underage are actually adults.

I'm not sure why you should give credence to anything the sect says. Did you believe OJ when he said that he didn't do it?

Statements by a defendant are notoriously unreliable.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

According to my local paper, the sect is claiming that some of the girls identified as underage are actually adults. Don't know if it's true, but if so that may account for some of the discrepancy.

Apparently these girls have been told to lie like crazy and not tell anything firm, not who their parents are, what their last name is, how many wives their father has, how many children ect.... They also know that their family and husband will get in big trouble if they are underage and have had children. So they lie.

Now several (many?) of the girls have admitted that they are underage probably because if they are older they will be taken from their children. All women over 18 are forced to leave back to the compound or a state shelter. Several lawyers have come forward and admitted that their client is underage.

So this is a double edge sword. Are they actually underage or are they overage but pretending to be underage so they can stay with their children?

Well if they are 18-20 and are saying they are underage so they can stay with their children, they probably were underage when they were "married" so they would be wonderful to turn states evidence. They need these people to come forward and testify.

DNA will tell parentage. How will they prove age? Are dental records that accurate to tell a 16 year old from a 18 year old? They have taken all official records and photos that might show a relationship and dates, what a mess trying to sort this all out. With patience this will be straighted out, there will not be a quick fix.

I wonder if the reason why there are less boys is because Jeffs hand-picked the people at this compound, and he pre-selected less boys to live there. Maybe some of the missing boys are at other compounds?

Thanks for the article Lisa. I have heard about these boys for years, glad to hear that 4 are suing Jeffs, wonder what has become of this lawsuit now that they have Jeffs in custody?

Susan

 

[Dancing David]

In Illinois you must furnish proof of citizenship for the foodstamp benefit (birth certificate and social security link), if these families were using 'welfare' benefits then chances are they had to report the names of all the children and thier birthdates. As well as the 'composition' of each household and all the people living there.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

For fun (?) my son has been working with an internet buddy to figure out the probability that a random sample of 70 people from a normally distributed population would consist of 53 females and 17 males.

The answer they came up with is 8.47 x 10^-22

Apparently that is a very small number. Caspian (that's my son) says that this number isn't passing the "smell test" with him, he isn't sure that is correct.

Susan

 

[Susan Gerbic]

In Illinois you must furnish proof of citizenship for the foodstamp benefit (birth certificate and social security link), if these families were using 'welfare' benefits then chances are they had to report the names of all the children and thier birthdates. As well as the 'composition' of each household and all the people living there.

I hadn't thought of this before. You are right. These women and children must have some paperwork somewhere, they can't receive services with out them.

Susan

 

[Kestrel]

I hadn't thought of this before. You are right. These women and children must have some paperwork somewhere, they can't receive services with out them.

The FLDS communities in Utah and Arizona solved this by having sect members in positions of authority. The town judge, police officers and doctors were all faithful members of the FLDS.

The sad part, is that state authorities often knew exactly what was going on, but ignored it.

 

[Dancing David]

For fun (?) my son has been working with an internet buddy to figure out the probability that a random sample of 70 people from a normally distributed population would consist of 53 females and 17 males.

The answer they came up with is 8.47 x 10^-22

Apparently that is a very small number. Caspian (that's my son) says that this number isn't passing the "smell test" with him, he isn't sure that is correct.

Susan

It is not a random sample?

 

[Dancing David]

The FLDS communities in Utah and Arizona solved this by having sect members in positions of authority. The town judge, police officers and doctors were all faithful members of the FLDS.

The sad part, is that state authorities often knew exactly what was going on, but ignored it.

That may be, usually however the paperwrok for welfare benefits is rather substantial and you have to go to the local state agency office.

 

[Meridian]

For fun (?) my son has been working with an internet buddy to figure out the probability that a random sample of 70 people from a normally distributed population would consist of 53 females and 17 males.

The answer they came up with is 8.47 x 10^-22

Apparently that is a very small number. Caspian (that's my son) says that this number isn't passing the "smell test" with him, he isn't sure that is correct.

Susan

He's right to think it's wrong. Working on boys and girls being equally likely, the question is what is the probability that a Binomial Bi(70,0.5) is at least 53, which is just under 1 in 10⁵.

(That's by just summing the terms from the binomial distribution. Using a normal approximation, the standard deviation is sqrt(npq)=sqrt(70*0.5*0.5)=4.18, so 53 is 18/4.18 = 4.3 standard deviations out, for a probability of 8.5x10^-6, which is close enough.)

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Lets say that a "spiritual wife" has her first child and is told to file for welfare and food stamps. She must go into an agency and register her name and DOB as well as the babies name and DOB. Starting with this info we have something solid. With each subsequent child she will need to register it and state a DOB. Whether or not the dates are exact, they should be close, why lie at that point.

Once we have the elaborate DNA chart stating who fathered/mothered who then we should be able to match up the states DOB's with the chart. Thus telling us how old people are according to the state's records when applying for welfare and food stamps.

Also don't women have to state who the father is to claim welfare? If the women lied and said they "didn't know" (what a slut these FLDS women are if they say that, or they are blatant lairs) we will soon know who the fathers are. It seems likely that not only should the man be prosecuted for fathering children with underage girls, but also allowing the state to pay for these same children. Can you really picture these mothers on the stand saying they don't know who the father of their child is? I assume they will just take the 5th.

The case seems confusing, but if I were the state of Texas, before all the statutes of limitations are up I would go after the church's trust fund and drain it.

During the civil war, Sherman practiced "total war", it was ugly and could be argued unnecessary, but the goal was to make the South never want to fight again, he wanted these people to remember how ugly war is. Maybe a stretch of an allegory, but in my mind these people and others like them need to understand that you can't hide behind their church and their women. Science can find you out. IMO the catholic church has not been punished enough (or sued enough) to make it painfully clear to others that this conduct will not be tolerated.

Clearly I don't have a problem making an example of these people. This issue has angered me to no end, and I'm sick of people poo pooing these "poor mothers whose babies were ripped out of their arms...." crap.

I am speaking from anger and frustration here, with a clearer head, I hope the church and families receive a fair trial. The public needs to know the truth and not the wild suspicions thrown around in the media and public arena. But if proven, I want this church broke and its leaders convicted.

Susan

 

[The Painter]

Texas is the bigger criminal here. They had no right to stormtrooper their way in based on ONE phony phone call.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Texas is the bigger criminal here. They had no right to stormtrooper their way in based on ONE phony phone call.

Firstly there were at least two calls placed to the abuse shelter. The ex-FLDS Jessop woman who aids girls who are trying to get out received calls all week long begging for help.

Secondly they didn't know it was a phony call (that hasn't been determined for sure yet) until days later.

If your house was on fire and you only managed to get one call through begging for help, would you want them to send someone out right away, or wait until more neighbors called and then they traced the call to make sure it came from your house?

"Stormtrooper" is a strong word, based on what happened with Waco and Jonestown, plus the added lock-down of this compound, and the second-coming nature of this cult, the police did not know what to expect. If a single sheriff had gone in and started asking for a Sarah, what do you think would have happened? If the police had been shot up by these people would you be asking, "why weren't they prepared?"

This was only a matter of time before the state got involved. When you live behind a closed locked gate, someone is going to wonder what is going on in there. When you refuse to tell us and will not allow society in, then you are going to get some concerns.

I think that there are a lot of Austrians thinking right now that they wished they had been more curious why this man would not let anyone near his cellar?

Susan