FLDS/Texas CPS - whose is the greater crime?

[drkitten]

The 6.3% number for Texas is the total number of children born to mothers in the 15-19 range divided by the number of mothers. Since a pregnancy only lasts 9 months, 6% of the girls in this age range being currently pregnant indicates a birth rate that is several times the 6% figure.

Er, no. It's the total number of children born per number of females of the appropriate age group (63 births per 1,000 females ages 15-19). You're right that a pregnancy only lasts nine months, so a minor modification is called for --- this would mean that if 6% of the population were pregnant at any one time, about 8% would deliver in any calendar year. But this doesn't take into account multiple births, either.

The numbers are still in the ballpark for their secular counterparts.

 

[rissablue]

Re: the genetic testing.

Seems to me that an eight year old child with a 20 year old mother is proof of abuse- with a built in proof of paternity/abuser. Isn't that the crux of this debacle?

I'm wondering what else might come up with genetic testing. You have a basically closed society with a seemingly high rate of marriages and childbirth. How likely do you think it will be to see nephew/niece marriages which may not be that bad depending on their particular laws but even as far as father/daughter or brother sister. I don't know what their core beliefs are regarding this and it worries me.

Also, you hear about the "Lost Boys" exhiled for the slightest mistake. Are there "lost girls"? I haven't heard of them and if not, what happens to a girl for a misbehaving either by talking back or questioning. Are they beaten or do they just run away and no one ever hears from them again?

Please let me know if these thoughts aren't justified because I'm just naive on the subject...

 

[slingblade]

I don't really care how many wives a man has, per se. Nor would I care how many husbands a wife has.

I care only that all involved are consenting adults. I admit that states which permit children under 18 to marry (you can't vote, drink, smoke, or enter into any legal contracts...except for marriage? What??) bother me. Why?

I got married at 18. It was one of the more stupid things I've ever done. I wasn't ready, even though I was legally old enough. A 15-year-old is hardly going to fare better, no matter how "mature for his/her age" he or she seems to be. Yes, that's my opinion.

So my worry is only that some girls may have been used sexually while still children. Meaning 10 to 14 or so. One's mileage may certainly vary on what age constitutes a child. This one is mine; no one need agree.

If they find only one girl, just one, had been used sexually while still under the legal age of consent, it's worth it all to me. And frankly, I don't really care how they came by their info, the bit that allowed them to enter the compound to start.

I'm biased. With reason.

 

[fuelair]

Good topic TA.

Forgive my rant. I am skeptical of the government showing up with "we are here to help you" signs. I have not much love for what these people do, but am a little empathetic for who they are as people, raised in an isolated sect of Mormonism.

This event has several aspects that Texas should answer for with careful documentation and evidence. In the US, citizens are normally innocent until proved guilty in court. Even in Texas, there will be a day in court which includes evidence.

So far, Texas justice seems oddly quaint and naively inept. (someone from Arizona should know about that) Their marriage and child abuse laws were extensively changed in 2005, and yet the Judge seems honestly overwhelmed by the results of their actions. They've had two whole years to think about this and plan it out.

Texas is at least guilty of being recklessly callous and insensitive to the state of these mothers and children. Being raised in an isolated religious sect is not against the law, or the Amish better watch out. (In fact, the Amish as just as abusive of their children, if not worse than FLDS.) But the Amish are quaint and colorful Christians, not evil Mormons like these people. Woohoo! Go Baptists.

If aliens descended from space and took away your kids, leaving you a note to appear on Mars to answer for your crimes - that would be close to this event. If the spaceships had FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH written on them, you might want to shoot at them as it took off.

My current expectation would be that if the ineptitude does not change, either most kids will be quietly returned in a few months, or violence will break out. Having this resolved in the best interest of the children seems rather remote.

Some little snippets of internet wisdom on this topic:

Age of marriage was ok before 14, before Texas law changes in 2005 made it 16:
Many other changes were made involving procedures for suspicion of child abuse.
The text of the Texas law changes are here:
http://www.bakers-legal-pages.com/leg2005/bills/sb00006f.htm#4.01
Changes in color, I always like that.

An interesting site that describes itself as "Post Mormon" bloggers:
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=292#comment-12843

Some bloggers are feeling a little more uneasy about this. Like, if children can be taken under false pretenses, who might be next? There is a suggestion that polygamy should be legal and then regulated is interesting.

A thread with some Catholic posters wondering about the comparisons with their own faith:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=2621684&trail=56

They crack me up more than a little. Catholics talking about what to do with authoritarian religious cults. -snort- Insensitivity to massive irony must cause some kind of mental damage but I'm not sure what it is yet. (The Catholic Church's position is that 14 years marriage for girls is fine, but it can be older if some places like their wives older.)

On the Endowment or consummation Rooms in Temples:
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_recovery&key=1207911421&newest=1207911421
This is that hubub about sex in the temples, like, they invented it or something.
I think this post is by ex-Mormon Steve Benson. Just an observation, but something exmormons have in common is a really dry sense of humor. Buried in the text is mention of a dress that was stolen during Temple endowments, and a drunken party after Joseph Smith told the participants that the wine they were drinking was consecrated so that they could not become drunk from it. Sweet Jesus that's funny.

Anyway, general giggles at religion aside. My current feeling is that it is not helpful to define either side's actions in terms of "crimes". It may turn out that there were crimes committed, but they should be defined by physical evidence and testimony.

More immediately, I don't see why the women and children could not be returned 'home' if the men were removed until the abuse issues were resolved.

The obvious reason for the marriage of 14 year olds is they are under control before they can learn they have real options (though I sense a proportional market for inexpensive handguns/poisons here!!).

 

[The Atheist]

Re: the genetic testing.

Seems to me that an eight year old child with a 20 year old mother is proof of abuse- with a built in proof of paternity/abuser. Isn't that the crux of this debacle?

Not really, unless you're happy for the Texas Rangers to take your child away because your neighbour is a child molester.

If they find only one girl, just one, had been used sexually while still under the legal age of consent, it's worth it all to me. And frankly, I don't really care how they came by their info, the bit that allowed them to enter the compound to start.

I'm biased. With reason.

I accept your reason, if not your reasoning.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Statewide statistics for Texas put the birthrate for mothers age 15-19 at 6.3%; the equivalent numbers for the USA as a whole is about 4.1%. The numbers have improved slightly but not substantially over the last five years.

Texas regained its number one status in teen pregnancies this year, after having been knocked up off for a year.

If 6% of the 15-19 year olds at the FLDS ranch are in fact pregnant, they're doing slightly better than their secular peers. Which just goes to show what a hell-hole of a place Texas is.

Not quite. Texas is a great place, with some unsavory side effects, like most places. Way to over hyperbole, drkitten.

Now, having said that -- I have no idea even where to look for stats for 13 year old pregnancies, and there's a huge difference between a 19 year old teen mother and a 15 year old one.

I'll offer you a couple of anecdotes to illustrate what's going on.

Setting: My daughter's eighth grade class in a suburban school. Number of her classmates who had one baby. Two. Number who had two. One. Number pregnant at the end of school year. Three.

Language spoken at home for all but one of the above kids: Spanish. The other is of mixed background, and English is spoken in the home. (It is useful to have a close friend who works such cases to find such things out.)

In an anecdote that is a lot closer to home for me, my daughter's cousin conceived out of wedlock at age 15, gave birth at age 16. (She advised her mother at about five and a half months that "she might be pregnant." ) Her mom is still the legal guardian of the child. IMO, the child is far better off being raised by her grandmother than her natural birth mother, by a few orders of magnitude in how things need to be for a child's rearing. Language spoken at home: English.

DR

 

[casebro]

I suppose the CPS is also doing pregnancy tests on every female? Hmmm, how do they define 'child'? Are all 416 under ummm ??? I'm sure most of their marriages weren't registered with the state? So every pregnant girl under the age of consent would be more evidence?


I wonder if we'll ever see a family tree? Of how many layers?

How many of Jeffs' children have their father for a grandfather?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Doesn't a couple of days and some evidence-gathering make a difference to what looked like a cut-and-dried case of cult-wide abuse.

Some relevant data in the meantime:

The initial call was almost certainly a hoax by a woman with a long history of mental illness.

No married women presently at the compound were under legal age for marriage in Texas.

The state's own psychologist admits that harm will come from the removal:



"could be destructive" vs "could be at risk"?

[Edited in] Then factor in:



It appears that underage sexual abuse has happened at the FLDS compound, but I fail to see how the law can work that a completely different child can be removed from its parents because someone else has committed abuse.

It seems to me that the Lone Star may have gone just a little bit far for a change.

TA, there's a whole lot of wrong going on in this case, from multiple directions.

Newsweek ran an article on this an issue ago, and came up with the following observation: most of the kids had never seen a TV until CPS rounded them up and placed them elsewhere.

I'd make a joke about the end of innocence, but frankly I have a hard time laughing about it.

The entire mess is a blessing in disguise: the FLDS weren't as firearms focused as the Koresh gang in Waco about fifteen years ago. This could have been bloody, and thankfully it wasn't.

DR

 

[drkitten]

I suppose the CPS is also doing pregnancy tests on every female?

The one under the age of consent --- I certainly hope so.

So every pregnant girl under the age of consent would be more evidence?

If you have another explanation for how a girl under the age of consent got pregnant that does not involve the words "sexual abuse," I'd like to hear it.

And I make the same offer to the defense counsel. So, that would be a "yes," then.

 

[Darth Rotor]

If you have another explanation for how a girl under the age of consent got pregnant that does not involve the words "sexual abuse," I'd like to hear it.

Incest. "The brother did it."

Not sure how applicable it is in this case, DNA tests may tell us all kinds of things, but it's something to be considered on a case by case basis when finding out who gets charged with what.

Me, I'm betting the under.

DR

 

[WildCat]

If a 50 year old mother is proved by DNA to have a 45 year old son/daughter

Errrrr...


Something tells me that the DNA pool here might not be deep enough to prove paternity/maternity in at least some cases.

 

[The Atheist]

The entire mess is a blessing in disguise: the FLDS weren't as firearms focused as the Koresh gang in Waco about fifteen years ago. This could have been bloody, and thankfully it wasn't.

DR

I wish I knew what the answer was, but it seems certain that taking all the kids away is one of the wrong ones.

Amen on the guns though.

If you have another explanation for how a girl under the age of consent got pregnant that does not involve the words "sexual abuse," I'd like to hear it.

I don't know what the specific rules in Texas regarding underage girls, but everywhere I know what the law is, it isn't classified as a crime - and therefore "abuse" - if both parties are very close in age.

If the same works in Texas, that would be 1.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Wonder how far back they can go. If a 50 year old mother is proved by DNA to have a 45 year old son/daughter can they prosecute the father?

Sorry, I messed up, I meant to say...If a 50 year old mother is proved by DNA to have a 35 year old son/daughter can they prosecute the father? That would mean the mother was 14/15 at the time she gave birth.

From what I am understanding now, the age of consent has only recently changed in Texas, it was 14 until a couple of years ago. Besides all these men have to say is that they gave birth and married in a state where she was a legal age. No documents, how are they going to prove it?

Read an article this morning where they interviewed some men who said they are reconsidering the policy of marrying underage girls. They said they didn't know it was a problem. Ignorance of the law.... But they might make a special case from these people, they are truly isolated. Their law was given to them by their Jeffs their leader.

Susan

 

[Susan Gerbic]

I'm wondering what else might come up with genetic testing. You have a basically closed society with a seemingly high rate of marriages and childbirth. How likely do you think it will be to see nephew/niece marriages which may not be that bad depending on their particular laws but even as far as father/daughter or brother sister. I don't know what their core beliefs are regarding this and it worries me.

Also, you hear about the "Lost Boys" exhiled for the slightest mistake. Are there "lost girls"? I haven't heard of them and if not, what happens to a girl for a misbehaving either by talking back or questioning. Are they beaten or do they just run away and no one ever hears from them again?

Please let me know if these thoughts aren't justified because I'm just naive on the subject...

Nothing wrong with needing more information.

I have heard about the Lost Boys for several years now. What happens is that there are too many males to allow for multiple wives. So the older men, force the boys out. Some may belong to families that have lost favor with the community, or the boys may have committed a crime. The boys interviewed say they only did some very small thing, maybe they are lying? Maybe the community forced them to leave for murder, or rape (funny coming from FLDS) you can't expect these boys are telling the truth just because you don't like the FLDS and want to hear some more dirt about them.

What is happening is that these boys are being "dumped" outside the community. They have few skills or education. They probably don't have birth certificates, proof of immunizations, proof of residency or anything. They just don't exist to the outside world, they have no money and no hope. I think there are organizations that are set up outside the group where the boys (and Girls?) can go to where they are used to dealing with this. I suppose we could look them up on the Internet. No excuse for not having knowledge. (maybe too much knowledge or conflicting info though)

The ex-FLDS women I have seen interviewed have said that there are severely punished if they run away or back talk or something. I doubt they exile them to the outside world because they are valuable as future brides and mothers (maybe some of these guys like a girl with spunk?) One woman said she was in solitary confinement for 2 years (I think thats how long she said) because she tried to run away. I guess they also beat their children, and lock them in closets.

How many of the 10-14 year olds are pregnant in the FLDS? Do we have data on that yet?

I don't think they are saying the girls are 10 and pregnant, that is unusual for a girl to be menstruating that young. They are saying 12-14 year olds. I don't think they have released a number but just say several have had children and several are pregnant. To me that means at least 6, maybe more. With my guesstament (as stated in a earlier post) to mean about 6%.

I suppose the CPS is also doing pregnancy tests on every female? Hmmm, how do they define 'child'? Are all 416 under ummm ??? I'm sure most of their marriages weren't registered with the state? So every pregnant girl under the age of consent would be more evidence?


I wonder if we'll ever see a family tree? Of how many layers?

How many of Jeffs' children have their father for a grandfather?

This may require an unusual genealogy chart to spell this all out. I know because I have done genealogy in the past, and some programs (the LDS one) allow for multiple wives and these confused family wreaths. But not this complicated.

Warren Jeffs inherited the wifes and children of his father. So that means his mother is now his spirit wife? Ohhhhhhhhhh Also his sisters are now his spirit wives? Yuck!

All the children in custody are under 18, I think they said that a couple of girls have given birth since they were taken in custody, so I guess the number of children has risen.

Again, I don't think the state is so worried about if and when the girls were married. Because only the first wife is married to the man legally. All the other women/girls are just extra marital relationships that he has children with and live in his household with the consent of the first and only wife.

From what I understand, the state is only worried about how old were the girls when they got pregnant and how old were the fathers. This can all be told with DNA. So when the men say they didn't know they couldn't marry girls under 18, what the state can say is, we aren't concerned with the "marriage" but what were you doing having sex with a girl under 18? I don't think the state is going to buy this, I didn't know crap.

The entire mess is a blessing in disguise: the FLDS weren't as firearms focused as the Koresh gang in Waco about fifteen years ago. This could have been bloody, and thankfully it wasn't.

We still have many FLDS groups that are watching this unfold. If they lose their children in Texas, the other groups may have an alternative planned if the government comes for their children. Hopefully the states already have informants in each of these FLDS communities and are being very careful.

Something tells me that the DNA pool here might not be deep enough to prove paternity/maternity in at least some cases.

They are saying that they will be able to see the parents, it is an extra step, but they won't have any problem doing it. DNA research has gotten that good.

I don't know what the specific rules in Texas regarding underage girls, but everywhere I know what the law is, it isn't classified as a crime - and therefore "abuse" - if both parties are very close in age.

The girl that came forward that put Warren Jeffs in jail was 16 and forced to marry her first cousin who was 19. So they weren't that far apart in age. The key to this is that she was "Forced" she appealed to Jeffs to let her go, and he refused, told her to remain sweet.

I've been wondering if the birth defects are higher in this community that normal. We know of at least 2 children. That would be interesting from a genetic sort of angle.

Newsweek ran an article on this an issue ago, and came up with the following observation: most of the kids had never seen a TV until CPS rounded them up and placed them elsewhere.

One video I saw on the Internet showed a mother walking a camera crew around the kids bedroom, everything was so neat (scary looking, that's child abuse IMO) and I noticed what looked like an open small laptop sitting on a desk. Not sure it that belonged to the camera crew, or maybe it was just for word processing. Interesting!

Another woman claimed that she had a college degree and "I'm not stupid" I wonder how likely that is, do they allow their girls to go away to college, or is it a mail order kind of thing, or did she join the cult after college, or is she lying? Also interesting!

Susan

 

[Darth Rotor]

One video I saw on the Internet showed a mother walking a camera crew around the kids bedroom, everything was so neat (scary looking, that's child abuse IMO)
Susan

I liked your post, it covered a lot of ground. The above was not only careless, but wrong in detail. Keeping a room neat, or insisting on it, is hardly child abuse.

DR

 

[Kestrel]

Er, no. It's the total number of children born per number of females of the appropriate age group (63 births per 1,000 females ages 15-19). You're right that a pregnancy only lasts nine months, so a minor modification is called for --- this would mean that if 6% of the population were pregnant at any one time, about 8% would deliver in any calendar year. But this doesn't take into account multiple births, either.

The numbers are still in the ballpark for their secular counterparts.

You are correct, birth rate is normally expressed per year. So the comparing the numbers requires knowing how they determined the FLDS girls were pregnant. Did they do some kind of test, ask the girls or just notice the ones that were obviously in that state?

 

[slingblade]

If you have another explanation for how a girl under the age of consent got pregnant that does not involve the words "sexual abuse," I'd like to hear it.

Incest. "The brother did it."

How is that not sexual abuse?

Seriously--your brother has sex with you, you're under the age of consent, and you end up giving birth to your own niece or nephew, but you weren't sexually abused in any way?

I urge you, DR, to temporarily stop your usual flippant attitude and remember that sexual abuse is not some abstract concept to several folks here.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

I liked your post, it covered a lot of ground. The above was not only careless, but wrong in detail. Keeping a room neat, or insisting on it, is hardly child abuse.

I suppose I should learn to use smilies more. With just text it is difficult to tell when someone is making a sorta joke. Which I was. That is why I wrote IMO (in my opinion).

Though I do have a friend who it is almost a disability for him. His whole family is like that, they clean every chance they get, he feels disoriented if his world isn't clean. He can never move on to other projects he would like to do more because he is too busy cleaning. I can barely have him over my house anymore, cleaning has moved far down my list, and I am getting more things done that I really want to do.

Sorry to derail.

Susan

 

[Dancing David]

I will save judgement until the actual cases begin,

OMG a crazy person says crazy things is not enough to impeach the case!

Now in Illinois there are three seperate procedures and they all have different standards of evidence.

But first i don't know what kind of warrant was issues to search the compound, under Illinois law DCFS can show up and threaten to get a warrant which is usually enough to get people to open the door.

But in Illinois the warrants are still subject then to judicial scrutiny. And they have a habeus corpus basis to them.

The DCFS process in Illinois

1. Reports, there are tow kinds, mandated and unmandated: mandated reporters are pople who are likely to come into contact with abused children in their work. the law states that they to make a report if they 'suspect ' child abuse. No evidentiary standard there. Citizens may make reports as well.

2. The report itself, you call a Hotline and usually have to wait 3 hours for them to call you back , unless there is an emergent physical risk. Reports must be made withing 48 hours of the incident, there should be physical bruises (you can beat your child if you don't bruise them) or behaviors which 'place the child at substantial risk of physical harm'. they had to add that because you could choke your child if you didn't bruise them. Acts of torture or comparable to torture. failure to meet the material needs of the child, not due to being homeless, includes not feeding, watering or providing adequate care to prevent harm to the child, failure to obtain emergent medical care. Any sexual contact or sexual exploitation of the child.

And that is what they will take reports on, even though the law says that there are other reasons to take reports, that is what they will take them on. I have had to fight with workers about parents masturbating in front of the children and other amazing stall to avoid a report.

2. Investigation: within a very short time period DCFS must send out an Invesigator to get information. A second report is then made, the report is 'idicated' or 'unindicated. There is an evidentiary standard. if 'indicated' the child will be taken into custody by the state right away.

3. Shelter care hearing: a hearing held in a sort time period before a judge, who must decide if there is evidence sufficient to show that the child should remain in state custody. The parent has the right to present limited refutation of evidence and witnesses. Up to and including this phase there is a burden to protect the child as the main goal. Children are often returned to the custody of their parents at this time.

4. Adjudactaio: A formal sentencing pretrial where the parent is informed of all the evidence and charges against them. usually very short and no chance for the parent to enter evidence.

5. The trial: An actual trial where the basis of the evidence and the law is considered in a regular setting, all the usual rules apply regarding discovery, evidence and witnesses, except the judge may and often does bar all non-essential people from the court room, including parents, it is a juvenile hearing and trail.

6. the process of DCFS, during the whole course the parent should copperate with DCFS and follow their recomendations for counseling , evaluation and treatment. DCFS demands that they be the only ones to set up such evaluations, but then will ding you for not making progress when they haven't scheduled the evaluation. DCFS farms out most of it's services which adds another layer of confusion.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The entire mess is a blessing in disguise: the FLDS weren't as firearms focused as the Koresh gang in Waco about fifteen years ago. This could have been bloody, and thankfully it wasn't.

DR

Koresh was an apocolypse cult, those tend to end badly. I do no think the FLDS is in general expecting the end of the world any day now, where they fight the evil goverment.