FLDS/Texas CPS - whose is the greater crime?

[ponderingturtle]

If you have another explanation for how a girl under the age of consent got pregnant that does not involve the words "sexual abuse," I'd like to hear it.

She could have been engaged in a little mutual sexual abuse with a similarly aged child.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Koresh was an apocolypse cult, those tend to end badly. I do no think the FLDS is in general expecting the end of the world any day now, where they fight the evil goverment.

But they are expecting the second coming of Jesus (any day now) that is why the women don't cut their hair, not ever. They expect they will use their hair to wash the feet of Christ. They have learned to be self-reliant because they think the rest of the world will be in battle and they won't be able to get outside help (hope they have enough tennis shoes, cause I know they ain't making them).

The women wear pants and special underwear under the gowns. They also said that the dresses have special symbols on them located in special places. It is to remind them of their vows (can only wonder where these are located) and to protect them. A chastity belt?

I want to know where the money comes from? These are people who have been in for generations so it isn't likely they are new recruits turning over their fortunes. They don't work outside the ranch. They have a cement and cheese factory, but I don't think they sell outside the ranch either (but could be wrong) Any ideas?

A writer who has been following this cult for years says that Warren Jeffs is the biggest raciest of them all. He is as bad as Hitler (I know Godwin's law, but I am only quoting here) The writer thinks it is the funniest thing that maybe a black woman will be the one who brings this cult to its knees. Not just because she is black, but because she is a woman.

Apparently the state has plenty to go with sexual abuse. The report I watched last night said that even if the call was a hoax they went in with good cause. And once they got in they found plenty of grounds for abuse.

I think the other compounds across the country (Canada & Mexico) should be really really worried by now. Not only do they have to worry about someone from their group calling in, but they have to worry that someone from the outside who sounds convincing will call in. I would love to be a fly on their wall. Wonder if they have some of these places bugged?

Susan

 

[Kopji]

...American taxpayers have unwittingly helped finance a polygamist sect...

...a business tied to the group receiving a nearly $1 million loan from the federal government and $1.2 million in military contracts

NewEra Manufacturing in Las Vegas... $1.2 million in federal government contracts,

previously known as Western Precision Inc. ...also received a $900,000 loan in 2005 from the federal Small Business Administration

...FLDS members were made to work for little or no wages...

$50,000 to $100,000 in company profits were going each month to FLDS

...male leaders have fanned out into... work as government defense contractors, dairy farmers, engineers, construction contractors, log-cabin home builders and suppliers of lanyards, the cords used on eyeglasses or nametags.

...JNJ Engineering, a company owned and operated by FLDS leaders, has made millions of dollars in Las Vegas...

...$11.3 million in contract work from the Las Vegas Valley Water District...

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/578846.html

My own feeling is that the government completely ate up their motto:

'Good parts on time'

That just zings of marketing creativity. The US buyers took one look at all the women dressed the same 1900 hairdo's, acting the same, thinking the same - and marveled at the process control. Six sigma comes to Mulberry street.

 

[ponderingturtle]

But they are expecting the second coming of Jesus (any day now)

BUt hey are waiting, as his followers believed Koresh was Jesus, they where only waiting for the end of the world.

 

[Darth Rotor]

That just zings of marketing creativity. The US buyers took one look at all the women dressed the same 1900 hairdo's, acting the same, thinking the same - and marveled at the process control. Six sigma comes to Mulberry street.

Crisp.

Saint Deming would be so proud.

DR

 

[Susan Gerbic]

"It was the belief that no age was too young to be married," said Angie Voss, a supervisor for investigation at Texas Child Protective Services.
Thursday's hearing was aimed at determining who gets custody of more than 400 children who were removed from the YFZ (Yearning for Zion) Ranch in an April 4 raid. The hearing took longer than expected because of objections from some of the 350 attorneys representing the children.
Voss said about 130 of the children removed were under the age of 4 and that girls as young as 13 had conceived children at the ranch.

The girls themselves do not feel there is a age too young to marry. That is brainwashing and child abuse. Several of the 13 year old girls have had babies.

Anyone have a good place to check for updates to this story. I usually use CNN but they keep rehashing stories and not updating much.

A friend of mine said they are searching for someone who was not at the ranch the day of the raid. Can't find anything on this.

Susan

 

[The Atheist]

Anyone have a good place to check for updates to this story. I usually use CNN but they keep rehashing stories and not updating much.

No, and that's disturbing.

For a place where "media circus" describes almost every event, the lack of information coming out is scary.

A friend of mine said they are searching for someone who was not at the ranch the day of the raid. Can't find anything on this.

Susan

They're not getting confused over the "Sarah" business, are they? That's the only bit which seems to fit, from what I've seen so far.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

They're not getting confused over the "Sarah" business, are they? That's the only bit which seems to fit, from what I've seen so far.

She said she read it in the Denver Times this morning. Guess I should look that article up?

Apparently there is a newspaper that has been following the Texas group since they moved in. It is a mother/father/son newspaper. But they have broken news before the mainstream news has. I guess I might want to find out who that is also. They are in the Texas compound county.

Susan

Susan

 

[Susan Gerbic]

Just read the article in the Denver Post by Troy Hooper, doesn't say much. Just talks about how the police talked to Dan Barlow (the man accused of harming Sarah) BEFORE the raid on the Texas compound. The police knew that Dan Barlow was in Arizona at the time of the raid.

Not sure what is important about this, because they didn't do the raid to find Dan Barlow, but to find Sarah.

Confusing.

Still wondering why it is so hard to find stuff on this. I want to know if the government can ask for the money back that they have been giving to these women and children. Once the DNA is in they will know who the fathers are and isn't that a crime to be living with the man and still claiming welfare?

Are FLDS using slaves to work under government contracts, literally undercutting everyone else who bid on the jobs. If you have no labor costs I guess you could win every contract. I hope this story hits big time the light of day.

Looks like there is enough legal action to go around for years. I hope they bankrupt the FLDS church. Wonder if the children and women can get reparations from FLDS? Can't seem to find the video that I viewed earlier that said the FLDS was living off a 100 million trust that had been set up for them. Thats a big number, where did it come from and is that a correct number?

Susan

 

[Dancing David]

I have also heard on NPR (I think) that they had a number of males in the compund who ratted out the compound, something about lost boy sundrome.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I don't know what the specific rules in Texas regarding underage girls, but everywhere I know what the law is, it isn't classified as a crime - and therefore "abuse" - if both parties are very close in age.

If the same works in Texas, that would be 1.

In Texas there is some wiggle room on consent, with an allowance (IIRC) of 2 years for the older person. The greater the disparity or the younger the victim, the more likely, if charges are brought for them to be sexual abuse of a minor rather than statutory rape. The problem with the FLDS case is that we're talking about 13 and 14 year olds being "married" off to much older men (some as old as their 50s) it's claimed.

The US buyers took one look at all the women dressed the same 1900 hairdo's, acting the same, thinking the same - and marveled at the process control. Six sigma comes to Mulberry street.

The hairstyles are actually from the 1800s and are never cut because the women are supposed to use it to wash Jesus' feet when he returns/they meet him. I learned something interesting about the dresses. The women were allowed to wear more modern, though still modest clothes until the 1950s when the dictate came down they haid to start wearing the Prairie dresses.

The local Dallas media has been reporting on the case fairly extensively. Dallas Morning News and Fort Worth Star Telegram are our major daily newspapers and our TV stations are:
KDFW 4 (FOX), KXAS 5 (NBC), WFAA 8 (ABC), KTVT 11 (CBS).

 

[The Atheist]

In Texas there is some wiggle room on consent, with an allowance (IIRC) of 2 years for the older person. The greater the disparity or the younger the victim, the more likely, if charges are brought for them to be sexual abuse of a minor rather than statutory rape. The problem with the FLDS case is that we're talking about 13 and 14 year olds being "married" off to much older men (some as old as their 50s) it's claimed.

It seems that that might be right, but I think the actual evidence of it's pretty slim at the moment.

 

[Aitch]

Just been listening to the amazing Brother Stair on short-wave(6.11MHz) and he says that the raid was a State Conspiracy to get hold of the land that the FLDS had improved and to get the children into the State system so that they can be corrupted.

Mind you, he also stated that:
1. Anyone who attended the Masses officiated by the Pope was worshipping Lucifer.
2. The Pentagon was built that shape because it's based on a pentagram
3. Virginia and Maryland were named after the Virgin Mary (even I know that's wrong!)
So it's possible he's not firing on all cylinders

 

[Dancing David]

Just been listening to the amazing Brother Stair on short-wave(6.11MHz) and he says that the raid was a State Conspiracy to get hold of the land that the FLDS had improved and to get the children into the State system so that they can be corrupted.

Mind you, he also stated that:
1. Anyone who attended the Masses officiated by the Pope was worshipping Lucifer.
2. The Pentagon was built that shape because it's based on a pentagram

The Pentagon was built that shape to hold in an Old One that the Army dug up by mistake.

3. Virginia and Maryland were named after the Virgin Mary (even I know that's wrong!)
So it's possible he's not firing on all cylinders

 

[Dancing David]

Here is my take as a person who worked as a children's advocate at a domestic violence shelter

You know what this is about don't you! They are pink skinned, middle class and don't look like those people! So there is all this hullabaloo about thier children being taken into custody. But if you are poor, dark skinend, a drug addict or homesless are the media going to care about YOUR children being taken into custody. OF COURSE NOT! Because you are 'one of those people'. You don't deaserve to have children because your are poor, homesless, a drug addict or have dark skin. But God Fearin White Folks! HMPH!

The truth is we need ANCARA , children at at great risk of abuse and exploitation, protecting them from serious harm is a good thing. I have made a bunch of reports in my time, it doesn't help being knowledgable about the workings of DCFS either, that does make it worse.

But why not pay more fore the care of children in state custody, why not put more money into prevention and intervention.

Because it isn't as sexy as a computer guided missle or a modern artillery piece that can drop twnty shells on the target in 1 sec.

After all children are only people and then they are often 'those sorts of people'.

 

[Cainkane1]

Five girls ages 14 thru 15 have been discovered to be pregnant. Many of age girls have more than one child that could only have been conceived if the were underage. For instance one 17 year old had three kids over 4. This needed to be broken up.

 

[drkitten]

Five girls ages 14 thru 15 have been discovered to be pregnant. Many of age girls have more than one child that could only have been conceived if the were underage. For instance one 17 year old had three kids over 4. This needed to be broken up.

From CNN:

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) -- More than half the teenage girls taken from a polygamist compound in west Texas have children or are pregnant, state officials said Monday.

A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. He didn't specify how many are pregnant.

"It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive," he said.

I agree with Mr. Azar. That's not the "normal" 6% per year, even for Texas. That's a pattern, a pervasive one, and an ugly one.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

3. Virginia and Maryland were named after the Virgin Mary (even I know that's wrong!)

He sounds like a kook, but he's parts of being right with this one. Virginia was named after the virgin queen Elizabeth and Maryland was named after "The Holy Mother" as it was a colony for Catholics.
--------
There's a local syndicated right wing radio talk show host who is livid over this case and goes on and on about how these children are respecful and polite and say sir and ma'am and how it's obscene that the government would upset their perfect whitebread lives. Somehow in his outrage he seems oblivious to the obvious generation sexual and mental abuse that is going on within the cult because they aren't gangbangers or atheists or whatever. And yet he'd probably be crazed by Muslims in America having multiple wives and many children, rants about illegal Mexicans having anchor babies and vents about black women having children out of wedlock.

His name is Mike Gallagher and I always thought of him as just a knee-jerk reactionary playing to his audience, but his defense of the FLDS cult makes me unable to conclude he is anything other than a racist.

 

[drkitten]

He sounds like a kook, but he's parts of being right with this one. Virginia was named after the virgin queen Elizabeth and Maryland was named after "The Holy Mother" as it was a colony for Catholics.

No, it was named after Queen Henrietta Maria, the wife of Charles I.

From Wikipedia:

The colony was named in honor of Queen Henrietta Maria.[1] The specific name given in the charter was phrased "Terra Mariae, anglice, Maryland". The English name was preferred over the Latin due in part to the undesired association of "Mariae" with the Spanish Jesuit Juan de Mariana.[2]

Reference 1 is to an official Maryland state website:

Maryland's name honors Queen Henrietta Maria (1609-1669), wife of Charles I (1600-1649), King of Great Britain and Ireland, who signed the 1632 charter establishing the Maryland colony.

Queen Henrietta Maria was the daughter of Henry IV of France (1553-1610) and his second wife, Marie de Medici (1573-1642). She also was the sister of Louis XIII (1601-1643) of France. Married to Charles I at sixteen, she had nine children, of whom three died in infancy. In 1644, in danger because of civil unrest, Henrietta Maria left England for France. Her husband was beheaded at Whitehall in London in 1649. Henrietta Maria died in 1669 at Colombes, near Paris.

 

[Susan Gerbic]

According to CNN

Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split -- 197 girls and 196 boys -- but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17, compared with the 53 girls in that age range

I am still not up to date on finding great stories on what is happening. This CNN article says something that is very strange. Note the ratio of boys to girls. Shouldn't that number be closer to 50%? That is 24% boys and 76% girls. Huh? No abuse going on huh.

I know they kick out part of the boys once they reach 18, but these are 14-17 years old. Did they get mistaken for over 18 at the ranch and they were never taken into custody? Were they killed as babies? What? Maybe CNN has the numbers wrong, but I like the way CNN writes the article, "but there are only..." The reporter knows something is up here also.

Susan