Epiphenomenalism

[hammegk]

No, but it may be conscious - but since you insist on defining any difference aaway then I guess you won't find my answer very acceptable?

No, I don't. Are you willing to assign "consciousness" to non-life?

If you will define the life / non-life boundry, that would help me see your viewpoint.

Doesn't it follow from the assumptions?

No.

 

[Loki]

hammegk,

No, I don't. Are you willing to assign "consciousness" to non-life?

Yes, at this stage! It seems entirely possible to me that a robot might be conscious, but not "living" in a traditional sense. If and when this does become possible (yes yes - how will we know) I suspect that the meaning of the terms "living" and "conscious" will be redefined somewhat.

If you will define the life / non-life boundry, that would help me see your viewpoint.

If you would define "life" I might be able to help. But since you define "life" as "that which is conscious" and you define "conscious" as "being alive" I'm afraid I don't really have ready answer for you.

(hammegk wrote) : Keeping the problem of consciousness simple -- alive vs not-alive -- how does one know that life was forced to emerge given the correct physical structure, or that life -- at it's whim -- chooses to "enliven" said structure?

(I wrote) : Doesn't it follow from the assumptions?

(hammegk wrote) : No.

Then I think I fail to understand your question. I thought you were asking "If materialism was true, how does one know that life (ie, consciousness) was forced to emerge given the correct physical structure?". Again, my answer would be - it flows from the assumptions. Am I missing the point here?

 

[hammegk]

Yes, at this stage! It seems entirely possible to me that a robot might be conscious, but not "living" in a traditional sense. If and when this does become possible (yes yes - how will we know) I suspect that the meaning of the terms "living" and "conscious" will be redefined somewhat.

Unfortunately, no-one will ever know if a robot *is* conscious.

If you would define "life" I might be able to help. But since you define "life" as "that which is conscious" and you define "conscious" as "being alive" I'm afraid I don't really have ready answer for you.

Do you have a better definition? And let's not worry overmuch about Terran parochialism of outlook.

Then I think I fail to understand your question. I thought you were asking "If materialism was true, how does one know that life (ie, consciousness) was forced to emerge given the correct physical structure?". Again, my answer would be - it flows from the assumptions. Am I missing the point here?

Umm, you don't get to assume materialism is true.

 

[Loki]

hammegk,

Unfortunately, no-one will ever know if a robot *is* conscious.

I'm not sure I agree - it probably relies on, yet again, the definiton of conscious. If we reach a point at whihc we beleive that consciousness has been explained in terms of physical processes, and we replicate those physical processes in silicon, I'm prepared to call it "consciousness". A few "ifs" in there, but nothing says to me that this is impossible.

Do you have a better definition? And let's not worry overmuch about Terran parochialism of outlook.

Chemical process...reproduction...reactive to environment...something...something... How am I doing??

Umm, you don't get to assume materialism is true.

Then what's the point of your question? Are you asking what's possible under any set of assumptions???

 

[hammegk]

I'm not sure I agree - it probably relies on, yet again, the definiton of conscious. If we reach a point at whihc we beleive that consciousness has been explained in terms of physical processes, and we replicate those physical processes in silicon, I'm prepared to call it "consciousness". A few "ifs" in there, but nothing says to me that this is impossible.

Agreed, but again, we will never know the Truth of the matter.

Chemical process...reproduction...reactive to environment...something...something... How am I doing??

"Reactive to environment", yup. The other criteria may be terran eccentricity.

Then what's the point of your question? Are you asking what's possible under any set of assumptions???

Nope, it's binary. Mind, or matter.