Dr. MAS - Please use this thread to explain homeopathy to us

[steenkh]

Mind you, all credit to the homeopaths, this serial dilution was a good idea. They'd have had real problems finding a bucket as big as the galaxy to stir their drop into. And what would they stir it with? You sceptics just don't realise the practical obstacles these geniuses have overcome to perfect their art.

Actually, I have wondered, what do these geniuses do with the 99% of the 199C stuff when they potentisize it to 200C? According to their own theory it is pretty potent stuff, and it could be imprudent to flush it down the drain (imagine rats becoming immune to rat poison after having drunk 199C homoeopathic remedy against hemorrhaging).

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

@BSM; the only reason I mentioned it was because I was doing some titrations yesterday with a burette (which of course are normally calibrated to 0.1 mL); it took about 8-9 drops for the burette to fall by one division. Of course the volume is going to be dependent on the diameter of the bore through which the liquid falls so a burette "drop" is going to be different from a Pasteur pipette "drop" is going to be different from a catheter/Eppendorf drop etc. (PS I don't now normally deal with aqueous solutions but I remember from 1st year that the ideal situation in titrimetry was to reach an endpoint with 1 drop of titrant - 0.01 mL)


Edited for the post scriptum

I wish I could find that pesky formula. It involved surface tension and the radius of the orifice, but I can't remember if there were other parameters.

 

[Mojo]

And what would they stir it with?

A very long spoon. Well, if you're going to sup with the devil...

 

[Darat]

Actually, I have wondered, what do these geniuses do with the 99% of the 199C stuff when they potentisize it to 200C? According to their own theory it is pretty potent stuff, and it could be imprudent to flush it down the drain (imagine rats becoming immune to rat poison after having drunk 199C homoeopathic remedy against hemorrhaging).

Especially when you think they can stay potent for 30 years or so.

However you needn’t worry about that since the "remedy" only becomes "magic" once you've wished upon a star or something like that.

 

[steenkh]

Especially when you think they can stay potent for 30 years or so.

However you needn’t worry about that since the "remedy" only becomes "magic" once you've wished upon a star or something like that.

So you mean, they only do "magic" rituals when they have reached the final stage of a series of dilutions? I had the impression that they did their rituals (succussion, trituration) after each stage.

 

[Darat]

So you mean, they only do "magic" rituals when they have reached the final stage of a series of dilutions? I had the impression that they did their rituals (succussion, trituration) after each stage.

You are using that idea of "logic" again, you've been told to leave that outside if you want to enter the world of the homeopath.

Seriously logic does have to be set aside in any attempt to “understand” homeopathy, Homeopathy despite all the smoke and mirrors is nothing more or less then a form of sympathetic magic. It’s just uses some “scientific sounding” labels to try and disguise this fact. It has no more logic then kissing a toad to remove the wart from your finger.

 

[Hawk one]

Yes, a logarithmic function is no doubt the solution, but it turns out not to be really necessary. You see, absurdity sets in way below 200C.

Here is a short list of potencies where the volume of water to one drop (0.1 ml) is related to something in the real world:

6C = 4 Olympic class swimming-pools.
13C = 3/4 of all Earth's oceans.
16C = Sphere the size of Earth.
19C= 10 Spheres with same diameter as our Solar System
22C = 1 cubic light-year
26C = 1 Sphere with same diameter as the Milky Way

The very popular 30C equals one drop of mother tincture in nearly a hundred million galaxy-sized balls of water .

I really see no reason to go into the hundreds of C. Anybody who cannot see the absurdity in the above is not likely to see it at all .

Hans

You know, if you could have made a couple of paragraphs beforehand explaining the process of dilution (including talking about what the Cs and the Xs and stuff means*), then showing off this little chart, methinks you would have one nice little article for the complete layman, showing them with one swift stroke the absurdity of homeopathic dilutions. And then you could have submitted that to Larsen or a local newspaper or something. You know, just an idea.

*I'm not saying I need such an explanation of what those things mean by now, as I've read most of this thread already, and thus have at least a basic grasp of the idea. Or at least I think I do. I mean, it's been interesting to follow this discussion, but things do get a bit abstract for me from time to time.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I am going to use it for an update to my homeopathy article (on my homepage), but I'm hoping to also include Rolfe's homeopathic safety limits on various hightly potent poisons.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

I have this from John Richard BSc, on the NCH forum (yeah, he gave me a bit if a jolt when he first addressed me "Mr. Hans", but that is his ONLY resemblance to Kumar:

Yes, I do understand all this, Mr Hans. But what I'm trying to get at is some clear and simple and undisputed numbers of the same form as you have done with the homeopathic dilution ratios. Simply reiterating Avagadro's Number as "the answer" simply jumps over the issue of actual demonstration of the reasoning you arrive at, and allows other people to simply ignore the arguments that follow.

I would like shown here on this forum the following deductive process:

(1) How many molecules of water in a litre, and thus how many in 0.1ml (1 drop).
(2) How many molecules/ions in 1 gram of a simple homeopathic ingredient, say salt (NaCl).
(3)when a starting homeopathic solution is made, how many molecules/ions of each exist.
(4) When a 1X dilution is made, how many molecules/ions of each exist.
(5) When a 2X dilution is made, how many molecules/ions of each exist.
(6) Repeat this down to, say, 30X dilution, showing the arithmetic all the way.

This should show us all the actual situation with regard to the physical potency homeopathic dilutions. Then we can get on with the process of arguing about them.

But, as you can see, the very first step of this is to get two numbers, the first of which is the number of molecules in a litre of pure water! So may we have that, please?

Most kindly, thanks

Some of the chemistry savvy should be able to answer this off the cuff (unless John Richard BSc is already one of you ) Just 1-3, then I'll do the math for the rest (spreadsheet time, again, heheh).

Please.

Hans

 

[Mojo]

Some of the chemistry savvy should be able to answer this off the cuff

On the other hand, we're still waiting for any of the MAS collective to answer BSM's question...

 

[DrDave]

1 a) How many molecules in a litre of water:

1 litre of water = 1 kg = 1000 g
Molecular weight of water = 18 g/mol
Number of moles of water molecules in 1000g = 1000/18 = 55.56 mol

Number of molecules in 1 mole = 6.022 E+23
Number of water molecules in 1000 g = 55.56 * 6.022 E+23 = 3.34 E+25

1 b) How many molecules in 0.1 ml (0.0001 l)

3.34 E+25 * 0.0001 = 3.34 E+21

2. How many molecules in 1 g of salt

Molecular weight of salt (NaCl) = 58.44 g/mol
Number of moles NaCl in 1 g = 1/58.44 = 3.91 E-4
(Number of moles Na+ in 1g = Number moles Cl- in 1g = 3.91 E-4)
Number of molecules NaCl in 1g = 3.91 E-4 * 6.022 E+23 = 2.35 E+20

There's a start for you - question 3 is a bit too 'woolly' for my liking! I don't know how homeopaths make their solutions. If they are adding the 1g of salt to the water the answers are as above. Otherwise, if you rephrase the question giving weights I'll answer it.

I've shown my working, so you can double check my answers if you like (I would advise it ), and you should be able to follow it and answer questions using other solvents/solutes if you can find the molecular weight for these.

Hope this helps!

Dave

 

[MRC_Hans]

On the other hand, we're still waiting for any of the MAS collective to answer BSM's question...

Certainly! But this is basically a skeptic tour de force at the NCH forum .

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Thanks, Dave!

Hans

 

[Zep]

 

[MRC_Hans]

OK, I have worked around question 3 by arbitrarily assuming that 1C is a 1% solution. This is, of course, not precise, but it makes little difference.

By the same token, I have ignored the space that the salt takes up in the vial. Since we are talking numbers with 23 zeroes, we can afford to omit such little details.

Finally, I have assumed that the preparation of the remedy (Nat. Mur.) is made in a 10ml vial.

From this we get (because my spreadsheet uses Danish number convention, the comma ',' denotes a decimal point '.'):

Potency©Water NaCl
Potency 1 3,34E+23 2,35E+19
Potency 2 3,34E+23 2,35E+17
Potency 3 3,34E+23 2,35E+15
Potency 4 3,34E+23 2,35E+13
Potency 5 3,34E+23 2,35E+11
Potency 6 3,34E+23 2,35E+09
Potency 7 3,34E+23 2,35E+07
Potency 8 3,34E+23 2,35E+05
Potency 9 3,34E+23 2,35E+03
Potency 10 3,34E+23 2,35E+01
Potency 11 3,34E+23 2,35E-01
Potency 12 3,34E+23 2,35E-03
Potency 13 3,34E+23 2,35E-05
Potency 14 3,34E+23 2,35E-07
Potency 15 3,34E+23 2,35E-09
Potency 16 3,34E+23 2,35E-11
Potency 17 3,34E+23 2,35E-13
Potency 18 3,34E+23 2,35E-15
Potency 19 3,34E+23 2,35E-17
Potency 20 3,34E+23 2,35E-19
Potency 21 3,34E+23 2,35E-21
Potency 22 3,34E+23 2,35E-23
Potency 23 3,34E+23 2,35E-25
Potency 24 3,34E+23 2,35E-27
Potency 25 3,34E+23 2,35E-29
Potency 26 3,34E+23 2,35E-31
Potency 27 3,34E+23 2,35E-33
Potency 28 3,34E+23 2,35E-35
Potency 29 3,34E+23 2,35E-37
Potency 30 3,34E+23 2,35E-39

Note that around 11C, the number for NaCl falls below zero. At this point it can be seen as the probability that a single molecule of the mother tincture is left.

WOW! We just recalculated Avogadro's number and got it right within an order of magnitude! Not bad for a ball-park calculation .

Hans

 

[Ashles]

All these threads about homeopathy seem remarkably free of actual homeopaths these days.

Scientific questions are obviously too hard to answer.

Unless our questions have diluted their presence to a point where they have become immensely knowledgeable.

 

[delphi_ote]

All these threads about homeopathy seem remarkably free of actual homeopaths these days.

Scientific questions are obviously too hard to answer.

Unless our questions have diluted their presence to a point where they have become immensely knowledgeable.

Maybe they're hard at work putting together studies to publish in peer reviewed journal, finally proving that our doubts were foolish. Right now, perhaps, they are speaking to the Nobel Prize Committee and Randi to arrange demonstrations of the most astounding discovery yet known to man. It could be that in a matter of weeks, we'll all finally have proven cures to all of humanity's woes. Once and for all, we will cure the population of disease and move bravely forward into a new world of peace and harmony.

Then again, maybe they just got bored of trolling.

 

[Mojo]

All these threads about homeopathy seem remarkably free of actual homeopaths these days.

Did they drink the Kool-Aid at their recent conference?

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

MRC your questions have been answered at NCH forum. He is not visiting at this forum for quite some time. Don't spread rumours here.

 

[Joe Random]

This makes me wish I'd saved a copy of that Thread Necromancer .JPG I saw on Bullshido the other day.