Does the IDF target civilians?

[zenith-nadir]

You asked for it, and you're going to get it!

The massive destruction of agricultural land in the Occupied Territories includes vast areas of land recently destroyed to make way for a fence/wall which Israel is building in the West Bank.

http://web.amnesty.org/web/web.nsf/pages/isr-index_2-eng

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. It is about vast areas of land.

You asked for it, and you're going to get it!

The construction of the fence/wall inside the Occupied Territories violates international law and is causing grave human rights violations.

http://web.amnesty.org/web/web.nsf/pages/isr-index_2-eng

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. It is about international law and human rights violations.

You asked for it, and you're going to get it!

In addition to the fence/wall, military checkpoints, blockades and a barrage of other restrictions confine Palestinians to their homes or immediate surroundings.

http://web.amnesty.org/web/web.nsf/pages/isr-index_2-eng

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. It is about fence/wall, military checkpoints and blockades.

And once again, for the third time, here's at least two instances where Israeli officials are quoted acknowledging that they were targeting civilians (both instances are reported by Human Rights Watch):

http://hrw.org/reports/1996/Israel.htm

Ok....so not the goal posts have move into Southern Lebanon. Fine by me. Let's examine your claim that this report finally shows "Israeli officials acknowledging that they were targeting civilians". Your first HRW link says:

http://hrw.org/reports/1996/Israel.htm

On permitting Hizballah to operate in southern Lebanon, Israel's chief of staff, Lt.-Gen. Ehud Barak, was quoted as saying: "We regard Hizballah, the population which harbors it, and the Lebanese regime which permits all this activity as responsible." (Emphasis added). "Rabin, Baraq Comment on Operation's Objectives." Israel Television Network, July 26, 1993, in FBIS-NES-93-142, July 27, 1993.

On causing damage, Gen. Yehosh Dorfman, commander of the artillery corps, told the New York Times on July 28: "Now we are at the stage in which we are firing into the villages in order to cause damage to property."

IMO these statements do not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. Barak refers to Hizballah, the population which harbors it, and the Lebanese regime. Gen. Yehosh Dorfman refers to property. Neither word can me misconstrued into the word "civilians".

Next HRW link.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/06/26/isrlpa925.htm

According to Maj. Gen. Dan Halutz, chief of IDF operations, the government "decided to carry out an attack on Lebanese infrastructure and not only on Hizballah objectives." An IDF official summary of his press conference today said that the targets included "power and the electrical transformer stations, bridges," "main arteries of transportation," as well as ammunition depots.

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. Gen. Dan Halutz refers to infrastructure including "power and the electrical transformer stations, bridges," "main arteries of transportation," as well as ammunition depots. None of those words can me misconstrued into the word "civilians".

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/06/26/isrlpa925.htm

Internal Security Minister Avigdor Kahalani, a cabinet member in the Netanyahu government, told Israel Radio that he had long advocated the idea of "switching the lights off in Beirut." He made clear that the attacks on the electricity infrastructure were reprisals against the Lebanese civilian population: "The moment residents of Israel living on the Lebanese border sit in their air raid shelters, it's important that they also feel it in Beirut. I have no doubt they will remember this night in Beirut for many years to come. It marks the transition point of a new method -- Israel no longer strikes at some antenna on a hilltop, but hits the infrastructure, and all the inhabitants of Lebanon feel what all of Israel feels."

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. Security Minister Avigdor Kahalani told Israel Radio that he had long advocated an idea of bombing infrastructure not that targeting civilians was IDF policy.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/06/26/isrlpa925.htm

Speaking in an IDF press conference this morning, IDF Major General Dan Halutz said that the infrastructure targets "had been selected a long time ago" and that expanding the target list to include non-Hizballah objectives was intended to send a message to the Lebanese that "all power brokers in Lebanon who support Hizballah's murderous activity are liable to attack." Gen. Halutz also remarked that future attacks on Lebanese infrastructure would target "all sources of power in Lebanon, not just Hizballah, to convey a message that none are immune to an Israeli retaliation if Hizballah attacks continue."

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. Major General Dan Halutz is talking about infrastructure targets not civilians.

Hell, I'll juts keep on posting reports of Israeli human rights abuses. I don't even care if it's about targeting (in the sense of shooting at) civilians anymore, it's obvious none of this stuff is making the slightest dent on the "Israel-right-or-wrong" folks. I didn't really expect it anyway...

So now the goalposts have moved once again.

It is now not important to support your position that the IDF targets civilians. Nor is it important to rebut your critics. It is now about endlessly posting reports of Israeli human rights abuses.

oh well...

 

[Jocko]

Hey Jocko, you're a

I'm a little red X?

Orwell, how old are you? I'll eat my hat if you're over 21.

 

[Mycroft]

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. It is about vast areas of land.

IMO this statement does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. It is about international law and human rights violations.

etc....

Oh, a little while ago he said he's moved on from proving th IDF targets civilians to just spamming this thread with anything at all that makes Israel look bad.

 

[webfusion]

Didn't you notice?

Mycroft, that is all he has been doing since joining the thread, 8 pages ago.

Orwell actually posted "I am just doing it to be annoying -- and am succeeding" but he edited that with a quote from Flaubert.

--------------------------------------------

I hate to derail such a valuable thread, but here is an interesting item, about an Israeli-Palestinian "Peace Team" playing soccer in Spain.

Israeli-Palestinian peace team player Walid Badir (L) fighting for the ball with Barcelona's Edmilson (R) in Barcelona on Tuesday (AP) (The Peace Team lost 2-1) http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/651654.html

 

[Orwell]

I'm a little red X?

Orwell, how old are you? I'll eat my hat if you're over 21.

Boy, are you really this stupid, or are you doing in on purpose?

I just called you a loser, you loser! And that's the best witty repartee you could came up with? Gee, how disappointing!

This is getting tedious. Maybe I should go annoy the idiots at littlegreenfootballs.com instead of wasting time on you jerks.

 

[webfusion]

Hey. Orwell, you overlooked this latest Human Rights Abuse by the Israelis --
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/650475.html

• Palestinians on Sunday said that settlers cut down more than 200 olive trees in the West Bank village of Salem, near Nablus.

You are slipping in your old age ... be grateful that you have a guy like me here to point out abuses that you've missed linking to.

 

[Orwell]

Webfusion on IDF killings of Palestinian civilians:

Screw that. Screw them, and screw the civilians who think they can go out to the streets of gaza, or ramallah or damascus or beirut and cheer the terrorists as heros, with no penalties or deterrance facing them from any quarter.

 

[Jocko]

Boy, are you really this stupid, or are you doing in on purpose?

Try clearing your cache and then refresh this page, Mr. Hawking. Then tell me again how stupid you think I am.

And yes, I do point out your idiocy on purpose.

I just called you a loser, you loser! And that's the best witty repartee you could came up with? Gee, how disappointing!

Wow. I've been called a loser. By Orwell. This really is a low point.

This is getting tedious. Maybe I should go annoy the idiots at littlegreenfootballs.com instead of wasting time on you jerks.

Yeah, maybe you should. Ask them how to link a firewalled picture while you're there, okay, junior?


Edited to add: I'll revise my estimate down to 19. How about it, Orwell? Are you legally entitled to play those M-rated games?

 

[Orwell]

Mr. Idiot, my computer is showing that image. I guess yours works as well as your brain does, eh?

 

[Jocko]

Hey idiot, my computer is showing that image. I guess yours works as well as your brain does, eh?

Which is why I recommend you clear your browser cache. You're crowing over a picture that only you can see. Try it and see if I'm lying.

Don't they teach you kids computer skills up there anymore?

 

[Orwell]

Content removed for several breaches of your Membership Agreement. Further breaches of a similar nature will result in a suspension.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Jocko]

Edited by Darat: 

Quote of a post with inappropriate material removed.

Just capturing the moment for you, Orwell, so you can't edit it out for the mods.

 

[Orwell]

Violence against Palestinians by Israeli security forces is not new, and has accompanied the occupation for many years. However, the outbreak of the al-Aqsa intifada resulted in a significant increase in the number of beatings and abuse, in part because of the increased friction between Palestinians and Israeli security forces. According to many testimonies given to B'Tselem and other human rights organizations, the security forces use violence, at times gross violence, against Palestinians unnecessarily and without justification.
Most cases involve a "small dose" of ill-treatment, such as a slap, a kick, an insult, a pointless delay at checkpoints, or degrading treatment. These acts have become an integral part of Palestinian life in the Occupied Territories. However, from time to time, cases of severe brutality occur.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Beating_and_Abuse/

 

[Orwell]

Just capturing the moment for you, Orwell, so you can't edit it out for the mods.

So you do see it! Oh joy!

Yes, I know you're a hate filled little bastard, no need to remind me of it.

By the way, I have no intentions of editing it out. I mean, if the mods feel the need to kick me out for something the current US president did, well, too bad a good chunk of the US public isn't as enlightened as the people who moderate this forum, eh?

 

[Patricio Elicer]

[modp]Orwell and Jocko: Please stop personalizing the issues in this section[/modp]

 

[Orwell]

The issues on this section were completely ignored by the Israel-right-or-wrong partisan hacks (as usual). I guess the only way the thread could go is into personal attacks.

How a forum dedicated to scepticism attracted these folks is a mystery that completely eludes me.

All my further contributions to this thread will consist of links and quotes. Please go ahead and do your worse.

 

[Orwell]

HRW report for 2002:

Israeli security forces were responsible for extensive abuses, including indiscriminate and excessive use of lethal force against unarmed Palestinian demonstrators; unlawful killings by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers; disproportionate IDF gunfire in response to Palestinian attacks; and inadequate IDF response to abuses by Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians; and "closure" measures on Palestinian communities that amounted to collective punishment. They also mounted a series of killings of suspected Palestinian militants under a controversial "liquidations" policy directed against those believed responsible for orchestrating attacks against Israelis.

For its part, the Palestinian Authority (PA) did little to exercise its responsibility to take all possible measures to prevent and punish armed attacks by Palestinians against Israeli civilians, including suicide bombings. In addition, the various security forces of the Palestinian Authority carried out arbitrary arrests of alleged Palestinian "collaborators" with Israel. Many were held in prolonged detention without trial and tortured; others were sentenced to death after unfair trials and two were executed. The PA also arrested some Islamist and other militants suspected of responsibility for attacks against Israelis and held them in untried detention. Both Israeli and Palestinian authorities failed to take the necessary steps to stop the security forces under their control from committing abuses, and failed to adequately investigate and punish the perpetrators.

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k2/mena.html

 

[Mycroft]

The issues on this section were completely ignored by the Israel-right-or-wrong partisan hacks (as usual). I guess the only way the thread could go is into personal attacks.

Except they were not. They were addressed several times, but instead of joining in a discussion, you elected to call people names and spam the thread.

How a forum dedicated to scepticism attracted these folks is a mystery that completely eludes me.

All my further contributions to this thread will consist of links and quotes. Please go ahead and do your worse.

Yeah, whatever. I'm guessing the only way you feel you can hold your own is by not actually having a dialogue.

 

[webfusion]

Screw the terrorists

Amazing. I was saying that I don't think that terrorists and their supporters deserve any immunity or 'kid-gloves' treatment, and Orwell uses that as "evidence" to show that I'm in favor of IDF targeted murders of civilians willy-nilly, just because it is good sport.

A Palestinian child is wounded. Shot by the IDF, most likely (who knows?) Yet, like in most cases, his injuries resulted from being involved with a combat situation with IDF soldiers.

• During the operation, dozens of Palestinian youths threw firebombs, rocks and iron bars at the IDF soldiers, Palestinian witnesses said. Border Police troops called to the scene opened fire with rubber bullets and tear gas grenades, Israel Radio reported.

Not "opened fire and killed them with machine guns"
Not "targeted the mob and mowed them down like dogs"
Not "called in Apache helicopter gunships to strafe and rocket the crowd"

And why were the IDF even there to begin with? In order to target the youths? In order to harm civilians, as the order of the day?
The soldiers had reportedly entered the city in 40 armored jeeps backed up by Apache helicopters. Palestinians said the soldiers were seeking to arrest Hamas operative Muhammad Zarloul and Fatah militant Rami Hanfar.

These are the facts. This is why we are on a skeptics board, to discern fact from fantasy. I know it's a tough job, but someone has to do it.

 

[Jocko]

The issues on this section were completely ignored by the Israel-right-or-wrong partisan hacks (as usual). I guess the only way the thread could go is into personal attacks.

How a forum dedicated to scepticism attracted these folks is a mystery that completely eludes me.

All my further contributions to this thread will consist of links and quotes. Please go ahead and do your worse.

Sure, you haven't addressed a single comment on your links. You haven't even consistently defined what your point is, or what qualifies as "targeting."

Then you flip me off for trying to help you post a firewalled photo, and call ME an idiot?

Yeah, I wonder what draws some people here, all right.