Does the IDF target civilians?

[Jocko]

Ah, but when you keep dismissing evidence of their wrongdoing on the flimsiest of flimsy grounds, one is left with no other inference to make.

Again - I do not dismiss evidence of wrongdoing! I dismiss evidence of wrongdoing as proof that civilians are deliberately targeted by the IDF. It's that... f*cking... clear, Cleon.

If you think the fact that none of these diahhretic links Orwell has vomited forth has ANY proof - other than your desperate willingness... nay, eagerness to see it - presents no obstacle to your pre-ordained conclusions, then I'm afraid the problem is yours. If I've missed something solid in all this soft stool Orwell calls an argument, then by all means remind me.

 

[Jocko]

In other words, "stupid." Glad you figured it out yourself.

I admit that I lack your peculiar capacity for self-loathing and arrogance, yes. Call that stupidity if you wish; I can live with your opinion.

 

[Orwell]

Again - I do not dismiss evidence of wrongdoing! I dismiss evidence of wrongdoing as proof that civilians are deliberately targeted by the IDF. It's that... f*cking... clear, Cleon.

If you think the fact that none of these diahhretic links Orwell has vomited forth has ANY proof - other than your desperate willingness... nay, eagerness to see it - presents no obstacle to your pre-ordained conclusions, then I'm afraid the problem is yours. If I've missed something solid in all this soft stool Orwell calls an argument, then by all means remind me.

Hey careful jocko, you're tripping on them big words. See, it's spelled d-i-a-r-r-h-e-t-i-c. And by definition, you can't vomit diarrhoea.

That's what happens when you think slower than you type.

So far all of the arguments from those I have disagreed with can be summarised thus: "I claim IDF does not target civilians. Why? Because I know the IDF does not target civilians."

 

[The Fool]

Here we go again, Fool. Here's my line:

"Show me where I've been an apologist. All I've said is there's no evidence the IDF deliberately targets civilians. There's no solid evidence to the contrary. Why does that make me an apologist?"

And here's the part where you call me a bigot for some reason. Ready, set, go!

look the other way, whistle a happy tune...there is no problem here.

 

[Jocko]

look the other way, whistle a happy tune...there is no problem here.

Fool, if you can't be bothered to actually address the issue on the table, then spare me your idea of humor.

 

[Jocko]

Hey careful jocko, you're tripping on them big words. See, it's spelled d-i-a-r-r-h-e-t-i-c. And by definition, you can't vomit diarrhoea. .

Well, that would be the least of your natural transgressions in this thread.

That's what happens when you think slower than you type.."

Learn that one on the playground?

So far all of the arguments from those I have disagreed with can be summarised thus: "I claim IDF does not target civilians. Why? Because I know the IDF does not target civilians."

Problem is, all you have to do to prove YOUR thesis is show me how the IDF deliberately target civilians. It's not my point to make, Orwell. They do still offer debate in junior high, do they not?

From you have provided, one could equally say - with your fast and loose grasp of the language - that all policemen "target" civilians because of accidents. Or that all motorists "target" civilians because of accidents. Or that utilities "target" civilians because of accidents.

If that's how you present your case, then I must say you're a lousy example of Canadian education.

 

[rikzilla]

look the other way, whistle a happy tune...there is no problem here.

Wow...concise, witty, inane... And what? You have >4,000 more of these gems archived?? How proud your daddy must be Fool....

Not too much longer now eh?

-z

 

[webfusion]

What did I miss?

Went away for a holiday weekend and things got hot and heavy here.
Gotta catch up.

To recap:
Last week, the IDF was in Jenin, on a mission to arrest alleged terrorists.
(Saleh al-Fuqahaa was killed).
This BBC link is really very useful, in that it describes the events in detail.
I'm providing a link, as a reference point to the situation I was trying to call Orwell's attention to, for him to comment on.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4463982.stm

Although I see no reply here in this thread from Orwell regarding the specific incident where Mr. al-Fuqahaa was shot (I've looked carefully), nevertheless I see this posted message from Orwell ---
"I have already answered your question. I never denied that there are Palestinian terrorists and that they must be arrested."

Saleh is a civilian. He was not a terrorist. He was not being sought by the IDF, he was not (as far as anyone knows) a subject of the operations into Jenin by the IDF to capture top Islamic Jihad terrorists. The IDF was in Jenin to get the planner behind a suicide bombing, which had been perpetrated by Islamic Jihad (as they admit) in the Israeli town of Hadera, killing five Israelis on 26 October.

OK, so my question was simple. I asked it first in post 147, and again in post 159. In Orwell's reply, he says "I did discuss it, in post 150" (a reference ot some story about human shields, having nothing to do with Jenin in November 2005) ---- I immediately called attention to this error, in my post 163, and again in post 168 and again in my post 173.
This one Palestinian guy was shot. Throwing rocks at tanks, I assume.
Is he to be considered "a civilian who was targeted by the IDF"? That's what I'm asking of Orwell. Just that.
(see my post #68 for a similar incident, or my post #147 which reviewed this current incident of the IDF shooting Salah al-Fuqahaa.)
TMY came in at that point : "In short, they (IDF) do not value Pali lives." and went on to make a direct comment about the incident during which Mr. al-Fuquhaa died: Post #170
Reading the thread it is possible to see that TMY, even in a stupor of rum (as he admitted at the time) understood the question! TMY said "Shot to death for throwing rocks???" Saying, in essence, "What's up with that?!!!"

To repeat what I said on page two of this thread:
The IDF plans to avoid any casualties in those operations, Orwell, wouldn't you agree? Our discussion here is about targeted KILLINGS of Palestinian civilians by the IDF, as a rule from the top down, as a matter of policy, as a matter of training, as a matter of intent, as a matter of purposeful action to go out together as a combat unit and intentionally murder innocent non-violent, non-rioting, unarmed, sitting around doing nothing, Palestinians.

(((( Orwell said he needs to keep that one in his archives 'for posterity' but I guess he's already forgotton the essence of my remarks, as these few pages of posts accumulated and he's still showing links that fail to prove that the IDF targets civilians ))))

So, there's my only question: Was Salah al-Fuqahaa targeted, in your opinion?
What is your answer, Orwell?

 

[Cleon]

I admit that I lack your peculiar capacity for self-loathing and arrogance, yes. Call that stupidity if you wish; I can live with your opinion.

 

[webfusion]

April 2004

I was stunned, truly and completely, by the offer of Orwell to "prove" his case with the testimony of Khairiya Diriyah, age 61, in the incident of April 11, 2004.

Orwell, are you aware of what was going on in April 2004?
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/W_report/English/2004/15-04-2004.htm

This is a link to Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, and just a casual reading gives an overview of the intensity & the scope of IDF actions during this one week, in Gaza and the West Bank.

I bring it as evidence of the IDF acting in wartime, and NOT targeting civilians. I personally believe that the husband of Mrs Diriyah probably was shot by incoming sniper fire from the rooftops, directed at that IDF patrol as they went house-to-house, and there is some basis for my belief, as the IDF banged on the door, amid shooting and grenades exploding all around. They were clearly under fire, and in the illumination of the open door, a Palestinian sniper on a nearby rooftop likely popped a few rounds (which is why she didn't hear shots, as the source of the fire was some distance away).

What led to those far-reaching April 2004 IDF operations that the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights carefully documents? Why is there no mention of the events leading to these military 'incursions'?
March 14, 2004 Ashdod 10 Israelis killed, 16 wounded Twin suicide bombings
February 22, 2004 Jerusalem 8 killed, 60 wounded Suicide bombing on bus
January 29, 2004 Jerusalem 10 killed, 50 wounded Suicide bombing on bus
{ETA source -- http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html}

Target that, Orwell.

 

[Jocko]

I'll just file that away with Orwell's schoolyard taunts and await anything resembling a serious reply from either one of you jokers. You have a pleasant evening, now.

 

[a_unique_person]

I'll just file that away with Orwell's schoolyard taunts and await anything resembling a serious reply from either one of you jokers. You have a pleasant evening, now.

You have no right to make any personal attacks of the 'self loathing' type. How can he make any 'rational' response to what is simply a subjective observation.

 

[Orwell]

Once again, here's at least two instances where Israeli officials are quoted acknowledging that they were targeting civilians (both instances are reported by Human Rights Watch):

Moreover, although the first stage of Operation Accountability was marked by a number of precision attacks by the IDF on purported guerrilla targets, the IDF engaged in wide-scale shelling during the rest of the operation. The damage done during the shelling was then justified as necessary as a deterrent.18 One express aim of Operation Accountability was to punish the inhabitants ofsouthern Lebanon for Hizballah's activities. The extensive nature of the damage sustained in numerous southern Lebanese villages confirms this stated intent.19 Human Rights Watch has found that in addition to the large number of civilian homes damaged, the basic infrastructure of many villages had been targeted and destroyed. By the end of Operation Accountability, conservative damage estimates suggested that some 1,000 houses had been totally destroyed, 1,500 houses had been partially destroyed, and 15,000 houses had sustained light damage.20 Israeli forces cut civilian water and electricity supplies, damaged schools, mosques and churches, and targeted a number of cemeteries with shell fire.

http://hrw.org/reports/1996/Israel.htm

Human Rights Watch today called upon Israel to halt indiscriminate and reprisal attacks on civilians and civilian objects in Lebanon. The organization also called upon Hizballah to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians in Qiryat Shemona and other communities in northern Israel. Since Thursday, the attacks have claimed the lives of two Israeli civilians and at least eight Lebanese civilians. Israeli officials explicitly stated that the attacks were reprisals against the Lebanese civilian population. Internal Security Minister Avigdor Kahalani said that he wanted "all the inhabitants of Lebanon feel what all of Israel feels." Reprisals, when aimed at civilians or civilian objects, violate international humanitarian law.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/06/26/isrlpa925.htm

Add to this all the other accounts and reports I've mentioned, and I think a pretty coherent and consistent case can be made for IDF targeting, shooting at, whatever, civilians on purpose.

 

[Orwell]

I was stunned, truly and completely, by the offer of Orwell to "prove" his case with the testimony of Khairiya Diriyah, age 61, in the incident of April 11, 2004.

Orwell, are you aware of what was going on in April 2004?
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/W_report/English/2004/15-04-2004.htm

This is a link to Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, and just a casual reading gives an overview of the intensity & the scope of IDF actions during this one week, in Gaza and the West Bank.

I bring it as evidence of the IDF acting in wartime, and NOT targeting civilians. I personally believe that the husband of Mrs Diriyah probably was shot by incoming sniper fire from the rooftops, directed at that IDF patrol as they went house-to-house, and there is some basis for my belief, as the IDF banged on the door, amid shooting and grenades exploding all around. They were clearly under fire, and in the illumination of the open door, a Palestinian sniper on a nearby rooftop likely popped a few rounds (which is why she didn't hear shots, as the source of the fire was some distance away).

What led to those far-reaching April 2004 IDF operations that the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights carefully documents? Why is there no mention of the events leading to these military 'incursions'?
March 14, 2004 Ashdod 10 Israelis killed, 16 wounded Twin suicide bombings
February 22, 2004 Jerusalem 8 killed, 60 wounded Suicide bombing on bus
January 29, 2004 Jerusalem 10 killed, 50 wounded Suicide bombing on bus
{ETA source -- http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html}

Target that, Orwell.

Ah, if that was the only evidence I was giving, I would agree that my case was weak. But it isn't the only evidence I am giving, is it? Concentrate on that and ignore the rest if you want to...

 

[Orwell]

To repeat what I said on page two of this thread:
The IDF plans to avoid any casualties in those operations, Orwell, wouldn't you agree? Our discussion here is about targeted KILLINGS of Palestinian civilians by the IDF, as a rule from the top down, as a matter of policy, as a matter of training, as a matter of intent, as a matter of purposeful action to go out together as a combat unit and intentionally murder innocent non-violent, non-rioting, unarmed, sitting around doing nothing, Palestinians.

No, our discussion is not about that, and from my point of view, never was about that. Our discussion is about IDF soldiers shooting civilians. I cannot prove that the IDF shoots civilians as a matter of policy, that kind of information is not available to me. But I can (and I did) prove, within my limitations, that IDF soldiers have shot civilians for no good reason, have often employed disproportionate force (which resulted in needless civilian deaths), and have been responsible for other human rights violations that have caused the deaths of civilians (using them as human shields, for instance). I have also argued that, as far as I know, the IDF has not done anything to stop its soldiers from acting this way.

 

[webfusion]

Reprisals. During a full-scale war. A declared military operation to stop Hezbollah from indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians. Mission: Accountability.

The one thing missing from this entire discussion on your part, Orwell, is do you feel that there is any darn good reason for the IDF to be shooting at all?

BTW, you said:
"...IDF has been responsible for other human rights violations that have caused the deaths of civilians (using them as human shields, for instance)" -- I know of one such an instance, where a Palestinian named Nidal Abu Mukhsan was killed by a terrorist, who shot this neighbor in cold blood, instead of accepting the plea to surrender to the IDF surrounding his house.
The IDF did not target Nidal Abu Mukhsan.
==============================================

I'm still waiting to see your comment about the death of Saleh al-Fuqahaa?
We are all waiting, and you are evading.

Do you feel that he was shot on purpose? In your view, is he a typical case of the IDF targeting civilians? Would you consider his killing a "needless death"?

How come this one is so tough to get you to answer?

 

[Jocko]

You have no right to make any personal attacks of the 'self loathing' type. How can he make any 'rational' response to what is simply a subjective observation.

It's only "subjective" to a moral gymnast like yourself, when sitting on the losing end of an argument. Tell me, AUP, do you think the IDF deliberately targets civilians for death?

 

[a_unique_person]

I have already said what I think. The post was still a personal attack with no substance.

 

[Orwell]

Reprisals. During a full-scale war. A declared military operation to stop Hezbollah from indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians. Mission: Accountability.

The one thing missing from this entire discussion on your part, Orwell, is do you feel that there is any darn good reason for the IDF to be shooting at all?

Well, did the IDF shoot at civilians in that case or not?

BTW, you said:
"...IDF has been responsible for other human rights violations that have caused the deaths of civilians (using them as human shields, for instance)" -- I know of one such an instance, where a Palestinian named Nidal Abu Mukhsan was killed by a terrorist, who shot this neighbor in cold blood, instead of accepting the plea to surrender to the IDF surrounding his house.
The IDF did not target Nidal Abu Mukhsan.

Well, good for you. So what? Have I ever argued that all Palestinian deaths are caused by the IDF? No.

I'm still waiting to see your comment about the death of Saleh al-Fuqahaa?
We are all waiting, and you are evading.

Do you feel that he was shot on purpose? In your view, is he a typical case of the IDF targeting civilians? Would you consider his killing a "needless death"?

How come this one is so tough to get you to answer?

I never introduced a post about Saleh al-Fuqahaa, that was your doing, and as far as I know, this is only the second time you've asked me to comment on the Saleh al-Fuqahaa death. I have no idea on what happened there, the article you linked is very small and not very informative. I think you should compare that with the detailed eye witness accounts reported on the B'Tselem web site that I have been linking. In this case, maybe IDF soldiers acted correctly, maybe they didn't, I don't know.

You linked this article before, and I commented on it. You asked me to comment about post 130, this post http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showpost.php?p=1289425&postcount=130, which I did. I suggest you go back, read what you have posted and try to simplify and summarise whatever points you are trying to make, 'cause I'm starting to have trouble following all the comments you seem you want me to make...

 

[a_unique_person]

The one thing missing from this entire discussion on your part, Orwell, is do you feel that there is any darn good reason for the IDF to be shooting at all?

I have asked already why the IDF is in the West Bank, (out of Gaza now), still. You can't throw rocks very far, for example, and it would be very easy for all IDF to be out of rock throwing range tomorrow.