Stop clouding the issue with that silly Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades nonsense Web, everyone knows the IDF is in the West Bank to oppress the Palestinians. That is when they are not busy mowing them down with gunfire.
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/israel.html
(emphasis mine)
(emphasis mine)...the word is jew everyone not Israeli.
I find most people who are anti-Israeli have never set foot in Israel. They have no idea what the real Israeli is like, it's complex, chaotic.. but ultimately, a benevolent society to all races and religions.
Whoaa there, little buckaroo. You're moving the goalposts. "Does the IDF target civilians?" is the question. You have not proved they do, though I have enjoyed watching you squirm and twist and obsfucate in this thread.
Those are claims that cannot be verified. You could also be a liar with too much free time on your hands. And even if it is true, I don't take arguments from authority very seriously.
Well, we agree on something, me and you. Zenith-nadir, however, doesn't seem to agree with us.
The articles I linked specifically use words like "IDF attacks civilians", "IDF shells civilians", "IDF soldiers shoot at civilians".
See, I think that you are so used to seeing and debating things in that context that you have trouble understanding people who make a distinction between a country's institutions and a country's people. For instance, I loath the present US administration and most of the american foreign policy of the last 50 years, but I do not loath neither the US nor its people. I do not think in terms of Israel bad - Palestinians good. There are victims on both sides, there are murderers on both sides, and the extremists and racists on both sides both use civilian lives as pawns in a morbid game of attack followed by reprisal that has been going on for decades now.
I never claimed that the IDF was a terrorist organisation, ever. As I said before, I'm sure that there are many soldiers in the IDF that behave humanely and follow whatever procedures they're supposed to follow. I am also sure that there are elements in the IDF who don't give a damn, and that the "culture of impunity" mentioned in several of my links has encouraged these elements to target (in the sense of shooting) civilians.
You decided to interpret my words in a way that would suit your prejudices about those who denounce Israeli and IDF policies and practices in the OT. You assumed that I was saying "Israeli bad - Palestinian good", and you deformed my point to fit that, essentially building a strawman.
I never asked you to do such a thing.
By the looks of those links I provided you, your "professional and extremely disciplined and fair army" is either filled with a considerable number of bad shots and trigger happy incompetent clowns who aren't fit to hold a slingshot, or your "professional and extremely disciplined and fair army" has a good number of soldiers who hate palestinians so much that they're incapable of maintaining their professionalism, discipline and fairness when dealing with them.
Your reference points, not mine. I never made those comparisons. IDF soldiers have, however, repeatedly used excessive force. As you said before: "Israeli troops have killed thousands. Israeli troops break down doors and bulldoze homes and orchards and destroy bridges and rip up roads. Israeli troops shell and bomb. Israeli troops have incarcerated thousands of Palestinians without trials, and even tortured people." I will add that IDF soldiers have often done these things gratuitously, to innocent people, either out of hatred or out of a desire for vengeance.
I deplore Palestinian suicide bombings of Israeli civilians. I think they're terrible events, and I'm completely against the politics that drive these attacks. That being said, I urge you to think about how the occupation and all the IDF abuses I have documented disrupt the fabric of Palestinian society.
You are generalising. The terrorist attacks you mentioned have been supported and perpetrated by a small very militant minority. You cannot hold all of the Palestinian population responsible for them, the same way that all the Israeli population cannot be held responsible for IDF abuses. The occupation and all the abuses that go with it will only increase the hatred and cause more pain and suffering. It is the occupation, the abuses and the hatred that goes with it that feeds extremism on both sides.
Yes.
Nowhere in this article does it use the word "shelling". Shelling implies implies artillery, the title of this link clearly states the IDF shelled a house with residents still inside, setting it on fire. Yet there is no artillery or shelling mentioned in the entire link...not once. Therefore that link is deliberately misleading that the IDF shells homes with people in them, when it actually did not happen in this case. Nobody on earth refers to gunfire as "shelling". Nobody. Therefore this link documenting that the IDF targets civilians - by shelling - should be apporached with a high degree of scepticism.
The witness testified, and I quoted her above, that: "there were no soldiers in the area". She also speculates that "They probably shot my daughter from the house of the al-Aalol’s family". So the witness saw no IDF in the area, she didn't see where the bullet came from so she speculates that the IDF must have shot her daughter. That's a huge leap to make considering she states she saw no IDF in the area.
In this third link the witness heard no shots, "I heard one of the soldiers say in Arabic, “We’ve killed a terrorist, we’ve killed a terrorist,” but I did not hear any shooting.". But she was only meters away from the door where Muhammad was shot. Interesting.
The witness heard that, she could somehow distinguish between frag grenades and stun grenades - editorializing anyone? - but somehow she did not hear Muhammad being shot a few meters away.
