Does the IDF target civilians?

[Orwell]

I have already said what I think. The post was still a personal attack with no substance.

That's most of what Jocko does around these here parts.

 

[Skeptic]

Possibly you're quite right, but the sheer number of Israel (pro- or anti-) threads is what prompted my not-too-serious remark. No offence intended.

Then again, the issue--like sex, violence, and G. W. Bush--seems to generate interest, as it were, all on its own. If you ever want a lively discussion, just name a thread "Hot Nude Palestinians beat Up G. W. Bush as the IDF Watches". 22,846 replies in the next five minutes, guaranteed.

 

[Cleon]

I'll just file that away with Orwell's schoolyard taunts and await anything resembling a serious reply from either one of you jokers. You have a pleasant evening, now.

And somewhere, in that little brain of yours, you seem to think "I admit that I lack your peculiar capacity for self-loathing and arrogance, yes" is a serious reply and something more substantial than a "schoolyard taunt." I therefore repeat:

 

[Skeptic]

Of course, there is the tiny point that the Arabs want to throw the jews into the sea, which might have something to do with why the israelis are slightly jumpy, for some strange reason.

Israel Zangwill, the 19th century jewish writer, was once asked why jews are so clannish and paranoid. He replied, "2000 years of Christian love". Somehow, the irritability of the IDF might have something to do with 100 years of Arab attempts to kill all the jews.

We keep hearing about the "Nakba". But just think, for a minute, what would have happened to the jews if they had lost the 1948 war, and you'll begin to understand the situation. At the time there were 600,000 jews in "occupied Palestine". Let's take a wild guess how many would have remained a week after the Arab victory.

Anybody? Please, no excuses--i.e., that the Arabs had the right to attempt a second holocaust three years after the first one was ended. Let us just get some figures.

My guess: 0 jews.

Anybody disagrees?

 

[webfusion]

Unreal.

Nobody, nowhere, noway, has denied that the IDF shoots (rifles, tank shells, missiles, bombs, whatever) and civilians do get killed. Not as targets, but as a consequence of lethal force being used in a war zone. In Lebanon, against unprovoked shelling and rockets directed by a terror organization (Hezbollah) against Israeli towns and villages, Israel fought back, and returned fire in the direction of the launchers. Yeah, civilians got killed, but the intent was to force the people to stop lending support and aid and comfort to the terrorists. That is generally Israel's guiding principle. It may be mis-guided, but that is what the Israelis have decided is in their best interests, and is part of their overall war on terror, a war that goes on today.
You refuse to accept that this discussion is focused on the methodical, intentional, aiming at innocent people for no reason other than to just kill 'em! That is the meaning of 'targeted' -- it's that simple.
You seem to think that 'targeted' means something else.

Have I ever argued that all Palestinian deaths are caused by the IDF? No.

You brought forward the proposition that the IDF uses human shields (a practice that has been discontinued) and that resulted in deaths of civilians, but I know of just one instance where a murder was a result, not by 'IDF targeting', but by a wanted terrorist maniac who decided to shoot a neighbor in cold blood. The IDF did not anticipate this outcome, and in fact, during other similar circumstances (until the practice was halted by the Israeli Supreme Court), the "neighbor method" was effective and useful, for all parties. If you can point to wholesale Palestinian deaths resulting from this practice, then I may reconsider rejecting your characterization of this as 'targeting civilians' for death.

As for the Saleh al-Fuqahaa incident I was asking about, your answer now is:
"In this case, maybe IDF soldiers acted correctly, maybe they didn't, I don't know. "

He was a Palestinian civilian.
He is dead. The IDF shot him.

Was he targeted by the IDF?

I say he was! Yes.
He was shot and killed by an IDF soldier, who opened fire against an unarmed man, who was throwing rocks. That bullet was aimed in his direction, he was a target, and he is now dead.

Now, my question, once more:

Does this fall into the definition of what you are calling "IDF targets civilians" ?
I say it does not.
Clear?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Soldiers shell house with residents still inside, setting it on fire You asked for it!

Ok. I asked for it. Let's take a close look at this link you provided as evidence the IDF targets civilians.


1) First thing I noticed was nowhere in the btselem.org article does it use the word "shelling", it only refers to "gunfire". Yet the title of the article states: "Soldiers shell house with residents still inside, setting it on fire". Shelling implies artillery, there was no artillery mentioned in the entire article...only gunfire. If I was to take the article at face value I would find that misleading... and being misled in the title of an article makes me sceptical of what else might not be factual in the article. btselem.org are generally honest folk so I take this article as factual eventhough the title is definitely misleading.

2) Let's visit the witness testimony.

On 23 October, at around 11:30 P.M., I awoke to the sound of gunfire next to my house. The sounds got louder, and I realized that the gunfire was aimed at my house because some pieces of the inside walls fell off .

• "I awoke to the sound of gunfire next to my house"

The witness stated she didn't awake to pieces of the inside walls falling off but that she awoke to the sound of gunfire next to her house.

• "The sounds got louder, and I realized that the gunfire was aimed at my house"

The witness states the sounds got louder, that is, the sound increased over time.

• "I realized that the gunfire was aimed at my house because some pieces of the inside walls fell off "

The witness states that after she woke up, and after the sound got louder, she realized that the gunfire was aimed at her house. How? Because some pieces of the inside walls began to fall off.



3) Since Nadira Ahmad Muhammad Hamad was not a witness to what was happening outside her house that night let's try to recreate what may have happened from her testimony.

• Orwell's scenerio: An IDF patrol is driving through Nur Shams refugee camp. It stops at Nadira Ahmad Muhammad Hamad's house and begins firing wildly into her house.
  
  Does the witness's own testimony support a high probability for this scenerio?

Here is an equally possible scenerio.

• Alternate scenerio: An IDF patrol is driving through Nur Shams refugee camp. As it passes Nadira Ahmad Muhammad Hamad's house a gunman or gunmen from Hamas, Islamic Jihad or Al Aqsa gunmen - take your pick - begins firing from the shadows beside Nadira Ahmad Muhammad Hamad's house. The IDF patrol stops and returns fire in the direction of the initial shots, hitting Nadira Ahmad Muhammad Hamad's house and causing a fire.
  
  Does the witness's own testimony support a high probability for this scenerio?

IMO I would have to go with the alternate scenerio having a higher probability of occuring that night than the first scenerio. The witness testimony led me to this conclusion because she awoke to gunfire beside her house and not IDF bullets ripping apart the walls inside her house. IMO, this link does not provide evidence that the IDF targets civilians. Additionally I can provide endless photographic evidence that Palestinian militants use noncombatant areas for cover, concealment and firing positions.

Palestinian gunmen in an alley next to someones window courtesy of radio free europe.

Palestinian gunmen fire into the night courtesy of Macomb Daily.

A Palestinian gunman using a Palestinian Authority bullding for cover and a firing position in the southern Gaza Strip, Saturday July 24, 2004. Courtesy of windsofchange.

In closing I leave it up to JREFers to decide if scenerio one or two is more likely then draw their own conclusions whether human rights reports prove the IDF targets civilians.

 

[Jocko]

That's most of what Jocko does around these here parts.

Easy now, kiddo, it's not like I spouted off and said you deliberately target civilians without any evidence.... or anything kooky like that.

 

[Jocko]

I therefore repeat:

How did I know that was going to amount to the sumtotal of your answer? You and Orwell seem to share a love of emoticons as well as a fear of actually making a case.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Ok. I asked for it. Let's take a close look at the second B'Tselem link you provided as evidence the IDF targets civilians.

Let's go over the witness's testimony:

On Wednesday, 15 September, at around 5 am, my husband and I woke up to the sound of explosions. Our children Maram and Maher, who are eleven year old twins, and Muhamad, age nine, and Alla, age six, woke up as well. We didn’t know where the explosions where coming from, but they were very loud and the children were frightened. I tried to calm them down by talking to them in order to distract them from the on-going shooting and explosions. This went on until about 10 am.

So from 5 a.m. until 10 a.m. shooting and explosions were heard outside by Manal Mahmud ali a-Damoni and her family.

My husband and I went out to the street to see what had happened and we saw our neighbors out on the street. In the morning, we heard on the radio that there was an IDF operation taking place. They had surrounded a house on A-razi Street which is one street above ours and they announced that five people were killed.

There was an IDF operation one street above Manal Mahmud ali a-Damoni's house. She and her husband went out on the street.

Then I heard a bullet shot and I thought that the army wanted to scare the people gathered in the street to see the evacuation of the house. My husband and I turned around and then I saw Maram. She was standing a few steps away from me and had blood streaming down her right cheek.

Manal Mahmud ali a-Damoni heard a bullet shot, she turned to see Maram with blood streaming down her right cheek.

We heard only one bullet being shot and there were no soldiers in the area. On the radio they announced that the mission was over but the soldiers hadn’t yet left the area.

Manal Mahmud ali a-Damoni heard one bullet being shot...but there were no soldiers in the area.

They probably shot my daughter from the house of the al-Aalol’s family which was used as a observation point for the soldiers.

There were no soldiers in the area but Manal Mahmud ali a-Damoni guesses the IDF shot Maram from the house of the al-Aalol’s family which was used as a observation point for the soldiers.

The motive?

I thought that the army wanted to scare the people gathered in the street to see the evacuation of the house.

Manal Mahmud ali a-Damoni thinks the IDF wanted to "scare the people gathered in the street" so she guesses that the IDF "shot Maram from the house of the al-Aalol’s family which was used as a observation point for the soldiers."

The witness on the scene clearly states,

• "We heard only one bullet being shot and there were no soldiers in the area."

and

• "They probably shot my daughter from the house of the al-Aalol’s family which was used as a observation point for the soldiers."

So there is zero evidence that the IDF was reponsible for the bullet that hit Maram other than "a guess" by Manal Mahmud ali a-Damoni eventhough she clearly states there were no soldiers in the area and she didn't see where the bullet came from.

IMO the witness testimony in this second link does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. Yet the link is titled "IDF soldiers kill eleven year-old Palestinian girl in Nablus, September 2004". Another misrepresentation in my books.

 

[Jocko]

IMO the witness testimony in this second link does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. Yet the link is titled "IDF soldiers kill eleven year-old Palestinian girl in Nablus, September 2004". Another misrepresentation in my books.

Not a just a misrepresentation, but evidence of fervent need to believe that the IDF is in the business of slaughtering innocents for no real reason. As to what motivates this need in Orwell, Cleon and AUP, I have no idea.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Not a just a misrepresentation, but evidence of fervent need to believe that the IDF is in the business of slaughtering innocents for no real reason.

The title of the link says "IDF soldiers kill eleven year-old Palestinian girl in Nablus, September 2004". But the witness states: "there were no soldiers in the area". I would call the title misleading based upon the witness testimony.

Anyhow let's take a close look at the third B'Tselem link Orwell provided as evidence the IDF targets civilians.

Let's go over the witness's testimony:

On Sunday, 11 April 2004, at about 10:00 P.M., I was saying evening prayers. While I was praying, I heard about ten explosions of stun grenades and loud sounds of gunfire.

It's 10:00 pm and dark outside... and Khairiya Ayash Sa`adah Diriyah, age 61, hears about ten explosions of stun grenades and loud sounds of gunfire. A 61 year old that can distinguish stun grenade explosions from all other explosions, interesting.

After about five minutes, the sound of shooting and grenades grew louder, and bullets came flying into the house.

The street battle between Palestinian gunmen and the IDF engulfs Khairiya Ayash Sa`adah Diriyah house.

I heard the soldiers shout in Arabic, “Terrorist! Open the door!” They kept on shouting all the time, and I could not tell where they were standing. I stood some seven meters from the window and shouted to the soldiers to come to the front door of our house.

IDF soldiers don't fire blindly into Khairiya Ayash Sa`adah Diriyah's house they shout in Arabic, “Terrorist! Open the door!”.

Muhammad moved me away from the door with his hand and told me that he would open it. I turned around and went to get the children and my daughter-in-law. I heard one of the soldiers say in Arabic, “We’ve killed a terrorist, we’ve killed a terrorist,” but I did not hear any shooting.

Strange, IDF soldiers do not communicate in Arabic. In fact I would hazard to say that IDF soldiers in the heat of battle would yell to each other in their mother tongue, hebrew. Anyhow, back to the testimony of the witness.

When I returned with Hayah and the children, we saw Muhammad lying on the ground by the entrance to the house. The floor and the walls by the entrance were covered in blood. The strange thing is that I did not hear any shots.

Khairiya Ayash Sa`adah Diriyah did not hear any shots but never the less Muhammad was shot and lying on the ground by the entrance to the house.

The soldiers stood by and watched apathetically. I begged them to help Muhammad and call an ambulance, but they did not respond. There were about ten soldiers inside the house, and some of them searched the house.

The IDF soldiers - who had just been in a gun battle - secured the scene.

Then another group of about ten soldiers came over to us, and one of them ordered me to go up onto the roof of the house with them.

One IDF soldier ordered Khairiya Ayash Sa`adah Diriyah to go up to the roof with him.

The soldier who spoke to me went up to the roof with another group of soldiers. They walked past Muhammad’s body and past the children who were crying and shouting. Four soldiers were standing at the entrance to the house, but I cannot identify them because their faces were covered in black and green paint, presumably as camouflage. After another fifteen minutes or so, the soldiers came down from the roof.

So now the soldier who had just ordered Khairiya Ayash Sa`adah Diriyah to go up to the room with him didn't actually go up to the roof with Khairiya Ayash Sa`adah Diriyah. He went up to the roof for 15 minutes with "another group of soldiers".

One of them told me that they had first-aid equipment and there was a doctor with them. Several soldiers left the house and returned with a stretcher. They put Muhammad on the stretcher some twelve meters from the entrance to the house. One of the soldiers examined Muhammad and bandaged his head.

When the IDF soldiers were confident that the scene was secure they administered first aid to Muhammad.

While I was standing outside by the stretcher, I heard other soldiers shouting “Open, open!” They were knocking on the door of the home of my other son, Ibrahim, who lives about thirty meters from Muhammad’s house.

Now the IDF soldiers were going door to door knocking, not shooting wildly.

Other soldiers took Muhammad in a military ambulance that was waiting by the house. Later, Ibrahim told me that the soldiers had removed his wife and baby daughter Asal from the house and searched it for about half an hour.

IDF soldiers took Muhammad away in an IDF ambulance and other IDF soldiers secured Ibrahim's house.

At about 4:30 A.M., the soldiers left the area.

Self explanatory.

IMO the witness testimony in this third link does not provide any evidence that the IDF targets civilians. After a street battle with unamed assailants the IDF ordered Muhammad to open his door in Arabic and the IDF knocked on Ibrahim's door to gain entry there. In neither case did they fire recklessly into the civilian homes. Yet Muhammad, like Maram in the second link, died needlessly.

And these sad stories repeat themselves day after day. Why? Because the Palestinian Authority allows militants to attack Israel. The Palestinian Authority allows militants to use civlian areas for cover and concealment. They allow militants to disguise themselves as Palestinian noncombatants and they make no effort to seperate the Palestinian combatants from the Palestinian noncombatants.

And on a dark street at 10:00 pm near Nablus - a haven for the militants - if you're and IDF soldier under fire you don't know who is a combatant and who isn't. It's truely sad.

 

[Orwell]

And once again, for the third time, here's at least two instances where Israeli officials are quoted acknowledging that they were targeting civilians (both instances are reported by Human Rights Watch):

Moreover, although the first stage of Operation Accountability was marked by a number of precision attacks by the IDF on purported guerrilla targets, the IDF engaged in wide-scale shelling during the rest of the operation. The damage done during the shelling was then justified as necessary as a deterrent.18 One express aim of Operation Accountability was to punish the inhabitants ofsouthern Lebanon for Hizballah's activities. The extensive nature of the damage sustained in numerous southern Lebanese villages confirms this stated intent.19 Human Rights Watch has found that in addition to the large number of civilian homes damaged, the basic infrastructure of many villages had been targeted and destroyed. By the end of Operation Accountability, conservative damage estimates suggested that some 1,000 houses had been totally destroyed, 1,500 houses had been partially destroyed, and 15,000 houses had sustained light damage.20 Israeli forces cut civilian water and electricity supplies, damaged schools, mosques and churches, and targeted a number of cemeteries with shell fire.

http://hrw.org/reports/1996/Israel.htm

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/06/26/isrlpa925.htm

Human Rights Watch today called upon Israel to halt indiscriminate and reprisal attacks on civilians and civilian objects in Lebanon. The organization also called upon Hizballah to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians in Qiryat Shemona and other communities in northern Israel. Since Thursday, the attacks have claimed the lives of two Israeli civilians and at least eight Lebanese civilians. Israeli officials explicitly stated that the attacks were reprisals against the Lebanese civilian population. Internal Security Minister Avigdor Kahalani said that he wanted "all the inhabitants of Lebanon feel what all of Israel feels." Reprisals, when aimed at civilians or civilian objects, violate international humanitarian law.

Add to this all the other accounts and reports I've mentioned, and I think a pretty coherent and consistent case can be made for IDF targeting, shooting at, whatever, civilians on purpose.

 

[Jocko]

Add to this all the other accounts and reports I've mentioned, and I think a pretty coherent and consistent case can be made for IDF targeting, shooting at, whatever, civilians on purpose.

See, Orwell, it's the "whatever" in that last sentence that makes you one of the following:

A) Naive
B) Simpleminded
C) A blatant liar

or

D) Whatever

You obviously have no idea of what you're saying, how to prove it, or how deep you've dug yourself. I'd appreciate your addressing the very reasonable questions about your last three regurgitations before I hand you a bucket to catch the new ones.

 

[Orwell]

You asked for it, and you're going to get it!

The massive destruction of agricultural land in the Occupied Territories includes vast areas of land recently destroyed to make way for a fence/wall which Israel is building in the West Bank. Composed of a series of obstacles 60 to 80 meters wide in average, the fence/wall is planned to run for more than 600 kilometers. Although Israel claims that it is intended to block entry into Israel to Palestinian suicide bombers and other potential attackers, most of the fence/wall (close to 90%) does not run between Israel and the Occupied Territories but inside the West Bank, turning Palestinian towns and villages into isolated enclaves, cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and Palestinians from their places of work, education and health care facilities and other essential services. The route of the fence/wall has been designed so as to encompass a large number of Israeli settlements inside the Occupied Territories, in violation of international law.

The construction of the fence/wall inside the Occupied Territories violates international law and is causing grave human rights violations. Israel’s legitimate need to secure its borders and prevent entry to people who may constitute a threat to its security do not justify the building of such a fence/wall inside the Occupied Territories, as security measures could be taken on Israeli territory, between Israel and the Occupied Territories

In addition to the fence/wall, military checkpoints, blockades and a barrage of other restrictions confine Palestinians to their homes or immediate surroundings. Such disproportionate and discriminatory restrictions imposed by Israel on Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have had a devastating impact on the lives of three and a half million Palestinians.

http://web.amnesty.org/web/web.nsf/pages/isr-index_2-eng

 

[Orwell]

We were all handcuffed and we sat on a pebbly ground. We weren't given
any food, and when we asked for water they poured it over us. The handcuffs were tight and when the blindfolds were taken off on our arrival I saw some people with hands black and swollen. We told the soldiers that they were cutting into us and they said there was no alternative. We started to shout and cry, begging them to ease the handcuffs. It was very cold and some of us had T-shirts and no shoes. We weren't allowed to go to the toilet and had to relieve ourselves there. By 3.30am we were starting to shake and our teeth were chattering with cold.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150742002

 

[Orwell]

Hell, I'll juts keep on posting reports of Israeli human rights abuses. I don't even care if it's about targeting (in the sense of shooting at) civilians anymore, it's obvious none of this stuff is making the slightest dent on the "Israel-right-or-wrong" folks. I didn't really expect it anyway...

 

[webfusion]

I didn't really expect it anyway...

Sure you did... obviously.

 

[Orwell]

See, Orwell, it's the "whatever" in that last sentence that makes you one of the following:

A) Naive
B) Simpleminded
C) A blatant liar

or

D) Whatever

You obviously have no idea of what you're saying, how to prove it, or how deep you've dug yourself. I'd appreciate your addressing the very reasonable questions about your last three regurgitations before I hand you a bucket to catch the new ones.

Hey Jocko, you're a

 

[Orwell]

Sure you did... obviously.

That reminds me... "By dint of railing at idiots, one runs
the risk of becoming idiotic oneself". Flaubert

Since it is pointless actually trying to argue anything on this subject, I think I'll go back to posting links of Israeli human rights abuses, just to annoy the hell out of a few partisan hacks.

 

[Orwell]

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150942004?open&of=ENG-ISR

Israel/Occupied Territories: Israeli army must respect human rights in its operations
Amnesty International is concerned for the safety of the Palestinian population in the Jabaliya refugee camp and elsewhere in the northern Gaza Strip, where the Israeli army is carrying out a large-scale offensive.

In the past two days the Israeli army has killed more than 35 Palestinians, including several children and other unarmed residents who were not participating in armed confrontations with Israeli soldiers. Most of those killed and injured were hit by Israeli army tank fire and at least two were killed by a missile fired by a helicopter gunship.

The Israeli army has deployed scores of tanks and armoured vehicles, backed by helicopter gunships. Frequent reckless shooting and shelling from Israeli army tanks and Apache helicopters into densely populated Palestinian refugee camps and other residential areas in the Occupied Territories have killed and injured thousands of unarmed Palestinians in the past four years, including hundreds of children.