arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
That's obviously racist. Woke DEI gone mad.
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Does racial disparity= racist policy?
- Thread starter Hercules56
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dirtywick
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what i directly implied is tuberville is a racist.
Donal
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can you quote where it says that?According to Executive Order 11246, if personnel at a Federal contractor do not match the general racial makeup of the population, it is assumes that racist policies are afoot and the company MUST take affirmative action to increase their representation of women and racial minorities.
Executive Order 11246 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Hercules56
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So yeah, there are lots of examples of racial disparity in civil service test results have been treated as if the exams are racist by design. With of course no evidence to prove this.
And minority test takers given extra points. Or the test simply thrown out. Cuz they didn't like the supposed racist disparity in the results.
And minority test takers given extra points. Or the test simply thrown out. Cuz they didn't like the supposed racist disparity in the results.
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Can you provide specific examples of this?
I've searched several times, but so far the only examples of extra points have been for veterans, disabled veterans, and (for promotions) seniority.
I did find examples where tests were thrown out or modified because the court found them to be biased or to test areas non-relevant to the job. (The basis of this is that this made the test more difficult for people from poor school systems, which is related to economic status and disproportionately affects minority applicants.)
Hercules56
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Read back in the thread, i gave several examples.
No, you gave zero examples. In fact, the post I quoted is the only time you mentioned civil service tests in this thread. (I just skimmed the thread and saw no other instances. If I missed one, please point it out.)
For clarity: can you provide support for the assertion that minorities get extra points on civil service tests?
I ask because I have found no evidence that this is in fact the case, though I know a lot of people believe it to be the case. (Common knowledge can sometimes be wrong.)
The only groups I found who got extra points were veterans, disabled veterans, and existing employees based on seniority.
Of course there are at least 51 civil service systems in this country. Perhaps some give extra points to minorities as you assert. Can you support your assertion?
Hercules56
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You're right, my examples are in another thread. I'll repost over here.
Hercules56
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There are no examples of blacks scoring poorer on entrance exams or civil service exams than whites score, and these scores being adjusted to allow more blacks to pass the exams?
Bushey v. New York State Civil Service Commission - Wikipedia
The minority pass rate (i.e. scoring above the 70th percentile) was 25% (eight persons) compared with the non-minority pass rate of 50% (48 persons). Under the 80 percent rule, the State determined that the Captains' exam had an adverse racial impact. The State reviewed these results in light of a rule of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which states that evidence that an employer selects minority candidates for employment positions at a rate that is less than 80% of the selection rate for nonminorities "will generally be regarded ... as evidence of adverse impact," see 29 CFR § 1607.4(D) (1984). It concluded that the test's minority selection rate of approximately 50% demonstrated an adverse impact on minority candidates.
Faced with this statistical disparity, the fact that the State had been sued by minorities with respect to two prior examinations for correctional officer positions, and the lack of any indication that minorities would not perform equally well in the position of Correction Captain, the State unilaterally decided to raise the scores of minority candidates by establishing a separate normalization curve for minority candidates and equating the mean of that curve with the mean for nonminorities
And...
The Michigan Civil Service Commission is accused of using an exam that discriminates against black applicants who want to work for the state police or become conservation officers.
Lawsuit challenges civil service exam as unfair to blacks
The Michigan Civil Service Commission is accused of using an exam that discriminates against black applicants who want to work for the state police or become conservation officers.apnews.com
A lawsuit claims the civil service exam produces racially disparate results because blacks have a higher failure rate than white applicants.
And...
A disproportionately small number of black and Hispanic police officers earned passing grades on a New York City police sergeants exam designed to overcome racial and sexual biases, according to figures made available yesterday.
The figures were released by a black police group and confirmed by the Koch administration.The results showed that only 1.6 percent of the black candidates and 4.4 percent of the Hispanic candidates passed, compared with 10.6 percent of the white police officers who were tested.
The group representing black police officers, the Guardians Association, called the results ''racially biased'' and asked Police Commisioner Benjamin Ward to reject them. The group's president, Officer Marvin Blue, said he did not know the reason for the results, nor was he saying the test itself was discriminatory - just the outcome.
And...
A Wayne County judge has certified a class-action lawsuit brought on behalf of more than 600 black applicants who wanted to work as state police or conservation officers but failed the required Michigan civil service exam.
Lawsuit: Michigan law enforcement exam discriminates against blacks
A Wayne County judge has certified a class-action suit related to the civil service exam written by state trooper and conservation officer hopefuls.www.freep.com
The lawsuit alleges that two different civil service exams the state has used since 2014 - one of which remains in use today - violate the Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act and discriminate against black applicants, who have a higher failure rate than white applicants do.
"The Michigan Civil Service Commission engaged in a pattern and practice of race discrimination in its hiring process through testing that had a disparate adverse impact on African-Americans," the suit alleges. "This illegal policy ... was furthered by command officers'/officials' failure to monitor the adverse impacts of the employment policies in place."
And...
The effect is to inflate the scores of blacks and Latinos in a way that gives them an advantage in obtaining available jobs. With identical raw scores of 300, a black would be ranked in the 83rd percentile, a Latino in the 67th and a white in the 45th, officials say.
Adjusted Federal Employment Tests Stir Controversy
The growing debate over affirmative-action programs in America is facing a new--and potentially volatile--controversy: They call it race-norming.www.latimes.com
KEY ISSUES: Critics complain that employers may well pass over qualified whites even though they have scored identically to--or even far higher than--Latino or black applicants.
Ricci v. DeStefano - Wikipedia
Twenty city firefighters at the New Haven Fire Department,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano#cite_note-findlaw-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> nineteen white and one Hispanic, passed the test for promotion to a management position, yet the city declined to promote them because none of the black firefighters who took the same test scored high enough to be considered for promotion. New Haven officials invalidated the test results because they feared a lawsuit over the test's disproportionate exclusion of a certain racial group (blacks) from promotion under a disparate impact cause of action.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano#cite_note-csm-2009-04-21-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano#cite_note-3"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a> The twenty non-black firefighters claimed discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Oh yes, civil service exam results have been edited or even completely thrown out, because non-whites did not perform as well. No proof that the tests were actually designed to be discriminatory was ever proven or even suggested.
Why? Because of a legal concept known as "disparate impact":
Disparate impact in the law of the United States refers to practices in employment, housing, and other areas that adversely affect one group of people of a protected characteristic more than another, even though rules applied by employers or landlords are formally neutral.
Disparate impact - Wikipedia
Civil service promotional bias suit, initiated by Worcester officer, settles for $40 million
A long-running class-action discrimination lawsuit initiated by a Worcester police officer who was habitually passed over for promotion decades ago is expected to settle for $40 million.www.telegram.com
Again, whites score better than blacks. Blacks sue in court alleging discrimination. Court agrees, finds that the test leads to disparate outcomes affecting blacks, therefore the exam must be voided.
No evidence of actually discriminatory questions ever presented. All that matters was the "racist" outcome.
OK, I see in your examples two instances of what I was talking about: Bushey v New York State civil Service Commission and the LA Times story about race normalization. Those were the only two in which minorities were given extra points. The rest appear to be cases where lawsuits asserted that the tests were biased. (Which I have no problem with.)
Both of those appear to be inappropriate responses to either the finding or the appearance that the tests may be biased.
When there is a disparity between scores, it makes sense to both investigate the reason for the disparity and whether the area in which the disparity occurs is an area of relevance to the job being tested for. If the test is found to be biased, the correct thing to do is redesign the test, not add points as a fudge factor. The separate normalization is maybe slightly better, but also not a good practice. The reason that they are bad is not so much that they are adding points, but that they are adding points based on a characteristic that is correlated with the likely cause rather than the cause itself. (Assuming the cause is poor schools in impoverished areas, the cause is the school, not race although minorities are more likely to be in poor schools due to poverty.)
Here, the only added points to civil service tests are for veterans.
Both of those appear to be inappropriate responses to either the finding or the appearance that the tests may be biased.
When there is a disparity between scores, it makes sense to both investigate the reason for the disparity and whether the area in which the disparity occurs is an area of relevance to the job being tested for. If the test is found to be biased, the correct thing to do is redesign the test, not add points as a fudge factor. The separate normalization is maybe slightly better, but also not a good practice. The reason that they are bad is not so much that they are adding points, but that they are adding points based on a characteristic that is correlated with the likely cause rather than the cause itself. (Assuming the cause is poor schools in impoverished areas, the cause is the school, not race although minorities are more likely to be in poor schools due to poverty.)
Here, the only added points to civil service tests are for veterans.
johnny karate
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While Trump's goon squad of unqualified white guys burns down America, the people Very Concerned about "racial disparity" are laser-focused on *checks notes* civil service exams.
angrysoba
Philosophile
Hercules thinks it’s 2021 and Biden is president, so he’s using MAGA and “heterodox” (read Peter Theil-funded) talking points based on inaccurate glosses of laws he hasn’t read and won’t quote.
What next? Critical Race Theory? Obama’s birth certificate?
What next? Critical Race Theory? Obama’s birth certificate?
angrysoba
Philosophile
Good luck to you if you did pass a civil service exam. You’ve probably been fired by now, rehired and fired again by Pete “DUI pick” Hegseth, Elon “Special K” Musk or Stephen “Special KKK” Miller.
Hercules56
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Really not the topic of the thread.
Trausti
Illuminator
That's probably because there's no credible rebuttal so the peanut gallery is left to making fart noises.