johnny karate
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Probably the same systemic issues that convinced millions of idiots in the U.S. to vote for a racist clown to burn everything to the ground.
Split Thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion and merit in employment etc
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Probably the same systemic issues that convinced millions of idiots in the U.S. to vote for a racist clown to burn everything to the ground.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Ooh, how about, you know, isolation?
I don't think you're grasping just how big Australia is, and how poor its remote communities are. This kid's ramshackle house is nine hours by road from the nearest hospital (there's a small medical centre in town that has exactly one permanent doctor), and twelve hours from the nearest university campus (Charles Darwin University, Casuarina), and that's if the kid even has access to a car. The local school covers two communities - Kalkarindji and Daguragu, 8km to the northwest - and lists its postal address as a PMB in Katherine, which is 8 hours away. And as far as I've been able to determine, it doesn't offer courses in software engineering. It has three teachers and one assistant teacher. It's a decent school, considering its isolation from literally everything, but there are barriers to higher education that you don't get if you're a rich kid from Vaucluse.
So exactly what's wrong with a programme that specifically targets these isolated communities? Is it okay to discriminate in this case?
Incidentally, Kalkarindji has a church, an art and cultural centre, a sports and social club, two stores, and I've just listed all of the attractions to be found there. At least most of its seven roads appear to be sealed, unlike nearby Daguragu. I just spent fifteen minutes on Google Maps and found out all there is to know about Kalkarindji.
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theprestige
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My primary objection is to race-based slavery.
Indentured servitude as a component of paying off one's criminal debt to society doesn't bother me at all. Any society that finds it acceptable to sometimes lock people up for the rest of their lives shouldn't balk at expecting them to do useful work for a while instead.
jt512
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Selection because of remote location or because of poverty, fine. Selection by race, not fine.
arthwollipot
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So some discrimination is justified, correct?
By the way, Kalkarindji is also demographically 98% indigenous. Probably the only whitefulla there is the doctor.
Yes, that's an correct word in indigenous Australian communities.
jt512
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According to the law firm Sheppard and Mullin, what is banned under Trump's executive orders are the following:
“Recruiting, interviewing, hiring, training or other professional development, internships, fellowships, promotion, retention, discipline, and separation, based on protected characteristics like race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, genetic information, or pregnancy, childbirth or related medical condition….”
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arthwollipot
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But Kalkarindji is 98% indigenous. Most such remote communities are. Does that not count as discrimination based on race or colour?
jt512
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Would what count as discrimination based on race or color?
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arthwollipot
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Providing specifically targeted programs to increase their educational opportunity.
jt512
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That question has already been answered: Were it in the US, the program would be prohibited under Trump's EOs only if it were based on one of the listed characteristics, such as race.
Hercules56
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Question for Progressives: do you support policies that seek to make sure minorities are equally represented in jobs in their communities IF it means lowering or adjusting qualifications and standards to get the job?
Basically, if job A only has 5% blacks but blacks make up 20% of the population, and the only way to get the job is a civil service test, would you support lowering the passing grade for that test for blacks from a score of 70 to a score of 60, if its guaranteed to increase black hiring rate to 20%?
Basically, if job A only has 5% blacks but blacks make up 20% of the population, and the only way to get the job is a civil service test, would you support lowering the passing grade for that test for blacks from a score of 70 to a score of 60, if its guaranteed to increase black hiring rate to 20%?
johnny karate
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Why would the standards have to be lowered for Black people?
Hercules56
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Because in this hypothetical scenario, blacks are scoring lower than whites. And if the passing score for blacks was lowered from 70 to 60, more blacks would qualify for the job, be hired, and racial equity would be achieved.
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johnny karate
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Have you stopped beating your wife?
Hercules56
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I edited my answer to the following:
"Because in this hypothetical scenario, blacks are scoring lower than whites. And if the passing score for blacks was lowered from 70 to 60, more blacks would qualify for the job, be hired, and racial equity would be achieved."
So, in this scenario, would you support lowering the passing grade for blacks in order to achieve racial equity?
johnny karate
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I don’t see the point in entertaining disingenuous and racist hypotheticals.
If you’ve got real-world examples of DEI practices you’d like to discuss, I’m game.
Hercules56
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You're joking, right?
There are no examples of blacks scoring poorer on entrance exams or civil service exams than whites score, and these scores being adjusted to allow more blacks to pass the exams?
Bushey v. New York State Civil Service Commission - Wikipedia
The minority pass rate (i.e. scoring above the 70th percentile) was 25% (eight persons) compared with the non-minority pass rate of 50% (48 persons). Under the 80 percent rule, the State determined that the Captains' exam had an adverse racial impact. The State reviewed these results in light of a rule of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which states that evidence that an employer selects minority candidates for employment positions at a rate that is less than 80% of the selection rate for nonminorities "will generally be regarded ... as evidence of adverse impact," see 29 CFR § 1607.4(D) (1984). It concluded that the test's minority selection rate of approximately 50% demonstrated an adverse impact on minority candidates.
Faced with this statistical disparity, the fact that the State had been sued by minorities with respect to two prior examinations for correctional officer positions, and the lack of any indication that minorities would not perform equally well in the position of Correction Captain, the State unilaterally decided to raise the scores of minority candidates by establishing a separate normalization curve for minority candidates and equating the mean of that curve with the mean for nonminorities
And...
Lawsuit challenges civil service exam as unfair to blacks
The Michigan Civil Service Commission is accused of using an exam that discriminates against black applicants who want to work for the state police or become conservation officers.
apnews.com
A lawsuit claims the civil service exam produces racially disparate results because blacks have a higher failure rate than white applicants.
And...
A disproportionately small number of black and Hispanic police officers earned passing grades on a New York City police sergeants exam designed to overcome racial and sexual biases, according to figures made available yesterday.
The figures were released by a black police group and confirmed by the Koch administration.The results showed that only 1.6 percent of the black candidates and 4.4 percent of the Hispanic candidates passed, compared with 10.6 percent of the white police officers who were tested.
The group representing black police officers, the Guardians Association, called the results ''racially biased'' and asked Police Commisioner Benjamin Ward to reject them. The group's president, Officer Marvin Blue, said he did not know the reason for the results, nor was he saying the test itself was discriminatory - just the outcome.
And...
Lawsuit: Michigan law enforcement exam discriminates against blacks
A Wayne County judge has certified a class-action suit related to the civil service exam written by state trooper and conservation officer hopefuls.
www.freep.com
The lawsuit alleges that two different civil service exams the state has used since 2014 - one of which remains in use today - violate the Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act and discriminate against black applicants, who have a higher failure rate than white applicants do.
"The Michigan Civil Service Commission engaged in a pattern and practice of race discrimination in its hiring process through testing that had a disparate adverse impact on African-Americans," the suit alleges. "This illegal policy ... was furthered by command officers'/officials' failure to monitor the adverse impacts of the employment policies in place."
And...
Adjusted Federal Employment Tests Stir Controversy
The growing debate over affirmative-action programs in America is facing a new--and potentially volatile--controversy: They call it race-norming.
www.latimes.com
KEY ISSUES: Critics complain that employers may well pass over qualified whites even though they have scored identically to--or even far higher than--Latino or black applicants.
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Brainster
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Class-based Affirmative Action (which is what you seem to be supporting here) doesn't have the issues around it that race-based AA presents. Can't speak for others but I'm pretty much fine with it.
Hercules56
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I support class-based AA in the forms of free test prep for civil service and entrance exams. Outreach by employers in poor areas. Even free tuition for poor people. But such things being based on race, is not fair, and currently illegal. As it should be.
As far as arbitrarily raising civil service exam scores for poor people, as what has been done for non-whites, as I showed above, Im not sure is such a great idea.
Hercules56
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Ricci v. DeStefano - Wikipedia
Twenty city firefighters at the New Haven Fire Department,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano#cite_note-findlaw-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> nineteen white and one Hispanic, passed the test for promotion to a management position, yet the city declined to promote them because none of the black firefighters who took the same test scored high enough to be considered for promotion. New Haven officials invalidated the test results because they feared a lawsuit over the test's disproportionate exclusion of a certain racial group (blacks) from promotion under a disparate impact cause of action.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano#cite_note-csm-2009-04-21-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano#cite_note-3"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a> The twenty non-black firefighters claimed discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Oh yes, civil service exam results have been edited or even completely thrown out, because non-whites did not perform as well. No proof that the tests were actually designed to be discriminatory was ever proven or even suggested.
Why? Because of a legal concept known as "disparate impact":
Disparate impact in the law of the United States refers to practices in employment, housing, and other areas that adversely affect one group of people of a protected characteristic more than another, even though rules applied by employers or landlords are formally neutral.
Disparate impact - Wikipedia
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