Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

[Craig4]

Not if you allow skeptics to disassociate you from facts on the ground, as they launch personal attacks on those who carry evidence they disapprove of...

This 'relevant passage' is just another personal attack.

"These people can't have anything good to say, they hate the baby Jesus!"

Pfft...

"a claim that lacks any factual foundation since Atlantis was, so far as we know, never symbolized as concentric rings"...???

Do a search for "symbols for Atlantis"...

Forget symbols; that's a dry hole. What you should be looking for are signs of past physical culture on the ground or in the water. No amount of conjecture on symbols is going qualify as evidence.

 

[King of the Americas]

Forget symbols; that's a dry hole. What you should be looking for are signs of past physical culture on the ground or in the water. No amount of conjecture on symbols is going qualify as evidence.

Symbols = Literature.

You gotta think macro, not micro.

EVERYTHING matters. And yes, much more underwater research should be performed at the site.

 

[Craig4]

Symbols = Literature.

You gotta think macro, not micro.

EVERYTHING matters. And yes, much more underwater research should be performed at the site.

Only when organized into a written language. Native Americans, as an example, had many symbols but they did not organize them into literature. You don't know the "language" so you can't credibly claim any of the symbols you cite relate to Atlantis.

 

[GT/CS]

Sorry, I was unaware of the criteria required to match history with archeological fact...

Maybe you could lay out a hypothetical, say Homer's Troy? Does the site found relate closely, resemble sorta, or is 'exactly' as Homer described it?

I guess a better question would be, "How did you determine which of Plato's words were valid?"

Every time you post you shoot off another toe.
Do you not agree that a potential Atlantis site needs to match the physical details mentioned by Plato?

 

[King of the Americas]

Only when organized into a written language. Native Americans, as an example, had many symbols but they did not organize them into literature. You don't know the "language" so you can't credibly claim any of the symbols you cite relate to Atlantis.

You are confusing 'words/language' with symbols.

Symbols carry with them, libraries of meanings. The Statue of Liberty for example, "Lady Liberty," "The Torch Barer," "The Beacon of Freedom" a rose by any other name, perhaps...but if millennia from now, after both America and France have long since disappeared from the world maps. Should one ignore the similarities found in the statues located an ocean apart? Would these two very similar symbols be connected. (*The statue of liberty was a gift from the French, they have one too.)

Symbols can and should be connected, not just by their general shape, but time and location.

You want to choose to ignore that the images are not just vaguely similar, but the same...found in the right place, in the right period?

Unwise...

 

[King of the Americas]

Every time you post you shoot off another toe.
Do you not agree that a potential Atlantis site needs to match the physical details mentioned by Plato?

Previously, I asked you to qualify the level of consistency required for a 'match'...

Still waiting.

 

[Craig4]

You are confusing 'words/language' with symbols.

Symbols carry with them, libraries of meanings. The Statue of Liberty for example, "Lady Liberty," "The Torch Barer," "The Beacon of Freedom" a rose by any other name, perhaps...but if millines from now, after both America and France have long since disappeared from the world maps. Should one ignore the similarities found in the statues located an ocean apart? Would these two very similar symbols be connected. (*The statue of liberty was a gift from the French, they have one too.)

Symbols can and should be connected, not just by their general shape, but time and location.

You want to choose to ignore that the images are not just vaguely similar, but the same...found in the right place, in the right period?

Unwise...

But absent the language you have no idea what the symbols mean.

 

[King of the Americas]

But absent the language you have no idea what the symbols mean.

Adoption of symbols as one's own does not require language, a true understand of the symbol's origins or even its meaning.

Wearing Nike's doesn't mean you've ever heard of "Just do it." or that you are an active athlete. It means you saw something cool, and put it on.

End of story.

Atlantis was special enough for us to know about it today, imagine the power its story and images must have held for those much nearer to its existence than we are now...

 

[imodium]

The evidence, at least in part, is that the menorah has in fact evolved. It was not as we see it today.

My point is that if we take it as pure fiction, then if it was in part, fact, we will never actually know of or find it...

Like Troy, it was not found, until people looked for it.
After watching Cameron's special, I find it difficult not to make clear connections, although I'd be in favor of much more underwater excavation.

The only evidence of Atlantis comes from Plato, who admits it was some 9000 years before himself, hardly a first-hand account.

However, Troy had many accounts of when and where it was and, was razed, many accounts from that period alone.
The Hittites built a city, Wilusa, on top of Troy, the Romans later built Ilium on top of that.
Troy wasn't so much lost as buried, in England we find lots of old Roman cities buried, yearly, like Troy we have ideas where they are due to evidence and, like Troy they don't get rediscovered until a shed tonne of money is thrown to find them.
The Romans had a habit of destroying conquered lands history so finding anything bronze age is pot luck and more in the lost category.

Comparing the two shows a total disregard towards any/all history and/or plain incompetence on the subject.

 

[King of the Americas]

The only evidence of Atlantis comes from Plato, who admits it was some 9000 years before himself, hardly a first-hand account.

However, Troy had many accounts of when and where it was and, was razed, many accounts from that period alone.
The Hittites built a city, Wilusa, on top of Troy, the Romans later built Ilium on top of that.
Troy wasn't so much lost as buried, in England we find lots of old Roman cities buried, yearly, like Troy we have ideas where they are due to evidence and, like Troy they don't get rediscovered until a shed tonne of money is thrown to find them.
The Romans had a habit of destroying conquered lands history so finding anything bronze age is pot luck and more in the lost category.

Comparing the two shows a total disregard towards any/all history and/or plain incompetence on the subject.

I'll concede this, Troy was 'easier' to find, because of the many accounts of it, but people. 'before it was found' still relegated it to myth.

Given the age of Atlantis, the absence of evidence, locating it with absolute certainty is expectedly difficult.

 

[imodium]

Adoption of symbols as one's own does not require language, a true understand of the symbol's origins or even its meaning.

Wearing Nike's doesn't mean you've ever heard of "Just do it." or that you are an active athlete. It means you saw something cool, and put it on.

End of story.

Atlantis was special enough for us to know about it today, imagine the power its story and images must have held for those much nearer to its existence than we are now...

Do a little *********** research, Critias isn't even Plato's most famous work, then factor in Atlantis only had a small part in it.

Like Sodom and Gomorrah the bible copied later, Atlanteans became drunkard, sexual deviants who got wiped out by Zeus, the end.

Word of note, if you actually bother to do any research, you will find Plato even got bored because Critias went unfinished due to the public's non interest, they liked sex along with drinking and didn't want to hear how they'd be punished by some invisible boogeyman.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 10. If you must swear in the public sections (of which GS&tP is one), then you must type the word out in full with no replacement characters, so that the autocensor can work.

 

[King of the Americas]

Do a little *********** research, Critias isn't even Plato's most famous work, then factor in Atlantis only had a small part in it.

Like Sodom and Gomorrah the bible copied later, Atlanteans became drunkard, sexual deviants who got wiped out by Zeus, the end.

Word of note, if you actually bother to do any research, you will find Plato even got bored because Critias went unfinished due to the public's non interest, they liked sex along with drinking and didn't want to hear how they'd be punished by some invisible boogeyman.

The cultural appropriation occurred well before Plato...

 

[Craig4]

But absent the language you have no idea what the symbols mean.

But you don't know what symbols could relate to your Atlantis.

 

[King of the Americas]

But you don't know what symbols could relate to your Atlantis.

You mean except for its shape, number of concentric circles, location, and date...?

 

[King of the Americas]

Youtube of reading of Plato's paragraph on Atlantis-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCZaKRz5i9Q

 

[Myriad]

The evidence, at least in part, is that the menorah has in fact evolved. It was not as we see it today.

My point is that if we take it as pure fiction, then if it was in part, fact, we will never actually know of or find it...

Like Troy, it was not found, until people looked for it.

After watching Cameron's special, I find it difficult not to make clear connections, although I'd be in favor of much more underwater excavation.

If the shape of the menorah has evolved, that is only evidence that the shapes of symbols (as well as the shapes of objects constructed for specific purposes, which menorahs also are) evolve. Which we already know.

The evidence you need to support a claim that "destroyed Atlantis = menorah" is something else in Jewish culture that makes the same connection. For instance, does the festival associated with the menorah commemorate a past land lost to inundation (such as, the earth before Noah's flood?) No, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Is there anything else in Jewish culture that suggests Atlantis? Perhaps the Noah story itself, which is after all a story of escaping by ship from a land punitively inundated by a god. In fact, that's far better evidence than the menorah shape. But it's still not very good, because there are a lot of differences in the story as well.

But wait, there's more! There's also the story of the infant Moses, left in the rushes at the verge of the Nile in a basket to escape a pogrom. There's no island involved, and there's no ocean, and no sinking or inundation, and it's not clear whether the basket ever even floated on the river at all, but so what? It's all symbolic! Baby Moses represents the scattered seed of lost Atlantean civilization, arriving in a symbolic ship (a basket) upon the shores of Egypt (symbolized as the banks of the Nile) and being adopted into Egyptian culture. Stories evolve too, so you can't prove it wasn't originally about that, long before it was written down.

Damn, "making connections" sure seems easy. But maybe I'm just really good at it. Do you think Cameron might give me a few hundred grand to go tour Mount Ararat and the banks of the Nile with a camera crew, to see what else I can find?

 

[Craig4]

You mean except for its shape, number of concentric circles, location, and date...?

And nothing to indicate that the creator of the symbol had your Atlantis in mind.

 

[TheSapient]

Sorry, I was unaware of the criteria required to match history with archeological fact...

Maybe you could lay out a hypothetical, say Homer's Troy? Does the site found relate closely, resemble sorta, or is 'exactly' as Homer described it?

I guess a better question would be, "How did you determine which of Plato's words were valid?"

Instead of demanding that other people prove your beliefs to be correct, why not do some work yourself? Better yet, why don't you START by gathering information and then develop beliefs that are consistent with the facts?

 

[TheSapient]

Adoption of symbols as one's own does not require language, a true understand of the symbol's origins or even its meaning.

Wearing Nike's doesn't mean you've ever heard of "Just do it." or that you are an active athlete. It means you saw something cool, and put it on.

End of story.

Atlantis was special enough for us to know about it today, imagine the power its story and images must have held for those much nearer to its existence than we are now...

I don't see the difficulty here. All you need to do is post some original symbols of Atlantis, the adoption of that symbol by others in the region, and some examples showing the transition to the menorah.

The idea that you can take a stylized version of a menorah, heavily modify it to a different image, and then claim that image represents Atlantis is not very compelling.

There are stone circles all over Britain. If I superimpose three on top of each other, I get three concentric circles. Cut it in half and add a stand, I get a menorah. Therefore Israel is Atlantis/England?

 

[King of the Americas]

If the shape of the menorah has evolved, that is only evidence that the shapes of symbols (as well as the shapes of objects constructed for specific purposes, which menorahs also are) evolve. Which we already know.

The evidence you need to support a claim that "destroyed Atlantis = menorah" is something else in Jewish culture that makes the same connection. For instance, does the festival associated with the menorah commemorate a past land lost to inundation (such as, the earth before Noah's flood?) No, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Is there anything else in Jewish culture that suggests Atlantis? Perhaps the Noah story itself, which is after all a story of escaping by ship from a land punitively inundated by a god. In fact, that's far better evidence than the menorah shape. But it's still not very good, because there are a lot of differences in the story as well.

But wait, there's more! There's also the story of the infant Moses, left in the rushes at the verge of the Nile in a basket to escape a pogrom. There's no island involved, and there's no ocean, and no sinking or inundation, and it's not clear whether the basket ever even floated on the river at all, but so what? It's all symbolic! Baby Moses represents the scattered seed of lost Atlantean civilization, arriving in a symbolic ship (a basket) upon the shores of Egypt (symbolized as the banks of the Nile) and being adopted into Egyptian culture. Stories evolve too, so you can't prove it wasn't originally about that, long before it was written down.

Damn, "making connections" sure seems easy. But maybe I'm just really good at it. Do you think Cameron might give me a few hundred grand to go tour Mount Ararat and the banks of the Nile with a camera crew, to see what else I can find?

You too, seem to be stuck in micro mode... Look upon this history not from a single era, but in a macro view of history.

The story of Moses and the Exodus were hundreds upon hundreds of years 'after' the appropriation and de-evolution of the symbol. It is likely those who adopted the symbol little appreciate for what the symbol represented, so to expect them to have the ability to pass anything along is ridiculous.

Can you make connections to the world's most ancient religion, a sunken city, with symbolism connecting the two with corresponding dates?

If so, Yes.